Question regarding "LUGGING" an engine

Boilermaker

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Sep 28, 2003
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If the older 85, 115, 135 & 140 hp OMC outboards where the same, except for carbs & exhust, then wouldn't running the lower hp engines at a lower WOT rpm be the same as running the higher HP engines at reduced throttle???<br />ie: My 115 running @ 5000rpm at WOT being virtually the same as a 140 running 3/4 throttle 5000rpm. Some say the 115 would be lugging>>>I don't think anyone would think the 140 was lugging.>>>what am I missing here??? :confused:
 

rickdb1boat

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Jan 23, 2002
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Re: Question regarding "LUGGING" an engine

All I can tell you is that OMC products like to be run at the high end of their RPM recommendation. 5500 RPM is aabout right, but the loopers like to run at 5500-6000. This comes from people I trust on this board(Dhadley,Djohns,Joe, OB)and others who know and I trust!
 

Cricket Too

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Re: Question regarding "LUGGING" an engine

Yeah I have heard this before also and am wondering what exactly makes them so happy to be run at WOT. It would seem that if you ran your motor at a little lower rpm you would save a little wear and tear on it, but I keep hearing that they like to run at these higher rpm's, just wondering what the mechanical reason is. Is it beacuse they get their full HP at WOT therefore causing less stress on it or something else? Thanks.
 

Boilermaker

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Re: Question regarding "LUGGING" an engine

I'm not doubting the issue of setting up to have the upper end of the RPM recommended range as your W.O.T. rpm. And i have faith that the advice given here by the "sharpies" is accurate. Its just as some one who has been a "motor head" his whole life, I want to understand the whys???<br /><br />My point is , these engines all share the same block/crank/rods/bearings/and displacment. So if you narrow the venturi on a carb so it flows less CFMs>>that is basicly the same as reducing a larger carbs throttle setting. So the engine with the smaller carb is putting out less power at WOT>>>but its componants don't know the differance between a small carb wide open or a large carb with the throttle plates pulled back. <br />SO WHY IS THAT LUGGING???
 

walleyehed

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Jun 29, 2003
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Re: Question regarding "LUGGING" an engine

There are several other factors involved.....<br />#1, the 85 was a smaller bore.<br />Over a period of time starting in the early 70's, every year it seems, they changed specks as to timing, porting in the aspect of location and size.<br /> The exhaust chambers were different on many models thru the years, and yes, the carbs had many variations as well.<br /> My 1975 115 had a max timing of 25 degrees, and yet my 1977 115 had a max of 28 degs., BUT the main jets in the older engine were larger...if I remember right .059 in the 75', and .057 in the 77'.<br />You've got to remember that at that time, the standards for horsepower were different.<br /> I now own a 1997 115, and it is IDENTICLE to a 1977 140.....different lower unit, but same powerhead and carbs...a few updates, but for the most part the same.<br /> It's funny in a way, because I expected the 97' model to spin the same prop a little more RPM, but guess what.......same RPM.<br /> So I, as well, don't understand quite what they were doing if in essence (?) the 140, at that time spun the same prop as the 115, the same RPM...???????<br /> You take a 60 degree loop-charged 115, and it will spin more RPM than the 90 degree crossflow will even though they are the same year, both rated 115HP @ 5000 RPM, same gear ratio.<br /> I guess I'm in the same seat with you...I don't know what the Heck they done for sure...still don't understand why a post 85' rated at the prop won't turn anymore R's than a pre 85' rated at the crank. That's why Yamaha left the competition in the dirt when they introduced there 115hp outboard.....who knows???????<br /> I guess I'd like to hear a response from Dhadley on this one....he's run more years of OMC than the factory did, I think......... :(
 

Boilermaker

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Messages
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Re: Question regarding "LUGGING" an engine

Thanks Walleyehed.>>from what I understand, my 1978 115 is the same as the 140 except the 140 had bigger carbs & buldg in the exhaust plate. Is that right??? could I install the carbs from a 140 on my 115 & get more HP????
 

rodbolt

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Sep 1, 2003
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20,066
Re: Question regarding "LUGGING" an engine

hello that big bulge is a tuned exhaust chamber. the so called bubble back cross flow blocks wont interchange with the flat back but I can mill the flat back and add the exhaust filler blocks to make a 110,115 or several other tuned style blocks. but then you start running into porting and combustion chamber designs and exhaust pipe and power head adaptor tuning so its nothing like a car. most car guys tear up outboards. 2 strokes like rpm. Ron turned a 1975 75 omc 9000 on a hydro with no problems. the sleeves were finger ported and used TRW forged single ring pistons. the cylinder head was homade as was the gear case. but the block and crank assy was stock. needle bearings do not require the power robbing oil film to stay alive.if you keep the cooling system in top shape and the fuel/oil mix correct and keep the ign/fuel system in top shape then a two stroke will run thousands of hours at 5000 rpm.my 120 OMC goes everywhere between 4800 and 5200. <br /> Good luck and keep posting just remember these are NOT car motors and if you treat them as such they WILL die.
 

Chinewalker

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Joined
Aug 19, 2001
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Re: Question regarding "LUGGING" an engine

One thing to keep in mind - simply putting a "bigger carb" on a motor will not (in general) improve performance, and in many instances will decrease it. A good rule of thumb is that what goes in must come out. If you pour more fuel in but don't deal with the exhaust side, it'll basically drown itself. The motor is a SYSTEM and you must deal with it as a system. 'A' affects 'B' which affects 'C' and so on.<br /> If you really want to find out how to make a Johnrude V4 sing, take a trip over to screamandfly.com...<br /> On a side note - the reason a 1978 150 and a 1995 115 are so similar is that in the mid-1980s they re-rated motors at the prop rather than the powerhead to take into account power loss in the drivetrain...<br />- Scott<br />- Scott
 

Chinewalker

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Re: Question regarding "LUGGING" an engine

Actually, that last line should read:<br />"On a side note - the reason a 1978 140 and a 1995 115 are so similar is that in the mid-1980s they re-rated motors at the prop rather than the powerhead to take into account power loss in the drivetrain..."<br />- Scott
 
D

DJ

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Re: Question regarding "LUGGING" an engine

Boilermaker,<br /><br />There are many diferences that are not necessarily apparent to the eye. Most internal and some tweaking.<br /><br />The 2-strokes like to run at the higher ends because it makes them breath more efficiently. The higher rpms allow the crankcase to breath and the rings to flex thus promoting a cleaner burn.<br /><br />With that said, you don't have to run your outboard at 5500+ all the time. You just have to prop it so that it is capable of it. By doing so, you are relieving stress on the engine at all speeds above planing speed. Propping to achieve that goal also allows the boat to plane quicker thus relieving stress on the engine.
 

ob

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Re: Question regarding "LUGGING" an engine

Boilermaker,djohns19 has the answer to your first question,Read it carefully and you'll see why the 140 propped to be capable of higher than 5000 rpm isn't being lugged when ran at 5000 rpm as would be the 115 propped to be capable of 5000 wot rpm.Over propping any engine which does not allow it to reach the upper end of its recommended wot is lugging it at ( any ) throttle setting.<br /><br />Think of it as climbing a grade at 20 mph in a standard shift auto.Climbing the grade at 20 mph in third gear(lower rpms) is lugging the engine more than climbing the same grade at the same 20 mph in second gear(higher rpms).Your outboard can't shift gears,therefore needs to be propped accordingly.
 

Joe Reeves

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Feb 24, 2002
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Re: Question regarding "LUGGING" an engine

Just to pick a figure out of the air, The older OMC engines hit their horsepower at say 4500 rpm, with the full throttle rating being between 5000 to 5500 rpm.<br /><br />The various horsepowers are attained via carburetors with various size throats, different jets, port timing (location of the port passages), exhaust baffle design, and exhaust tuning megaphones, and a few more items no doubt.<br /><br />Unless a boater is a marine engine design engineer, my thoughts would be that attempting to increase a engines horsepower etc via the interchanging components route would be self defeating.<br /><br />Pertaining to horsepower, with the rpm figures stated above, the 85hp and the 140hp hit their rated horsepower at the same 4500 rpm. It stands to reason that lowering the rpm of the 140hp to some degree under that 4500 rpm figure would result in lowering the horsepower.<br /><br />The term of "Lugging" pertains to a engine which has a mismatched propeller in relation to the craft it's installed upon, a prop with usually too much pitch. This result is that, at full throttle, the carburetor butterflies are wide open and the timing is at the full spark advance point, but due to the prop mismatch the engine cannot obtain the proper rated rpm. In short, what's being taken in by the engine cannot be expelled.<br /><br />The result of the "Lugging" is a thick sort of white waxy like substance build up on top of the pistons..... very thick! This substance might resemble a thick carbon build up except for its color and the fact that it is not as hard. Whatever the case, the fact that it's there decreases the engine's performance.<br /><br />Although the OMC engines are designed for full throttle performance of a unlimited time span, when properly matched (Engine/Boat/Prop), it is fully acceptable to run any of them at a lesser rpm also for a unlimited time span. The exception being trolling at an extremely low rpm with a high horsepower engine... they have a tendency to eventually load up on fuel somewhat.<br /><br />In automotive terms.... just because ones vehicle, and the related engine at a certain rpm will attain a certain horsepower and do 130 mph, one doesn't obtain that hp rated rpm and drive that fast on a regular basis.<br /><br />Now, to answer your first question.... Yes(grin).
 

vissertrades

Petty Officer 3rd Class
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Aug 16, 2003
Messages
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Re: Question regarding "LUGGING" an engine

I think it was said before that by "lugging" the engine you risk increased engine temps due to extra strain (torque) needed to spin the prop. More torque = higher loads on bearings, crank, rods etc. Also, it was said that higher rpm's tend to inhibit coking or carbon build up, which, because we burn oil all the time, is a major consideration. More carbon deposits = higher compression = pre ignition = incomplete combustion = more deposits = more heat? Ever punch your cars throttle and notice a cloud of black smoke, I liken higher rpm's to blowing out carbon in a car engine but on a smaller, more consistant basis...
 

Solittle

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Re: Question regarding "LUGGING" an engine

JB - This is a great candidate for your new FAQ.
 

Hooty

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Oct 2, 2001
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Re: Question regarding "LUGGING" an engine

I think I posted this before and didn't get a response. Maybe this time.<br />I think that the rated horsepower of some engines is not their maximum horsepower. If an engine is rated 50hp. @ 4500rpm. ,what is it at 5500rpm? <br />An example:<br />A 1979 149 cu.in. V6 is rated 175hp @ 5000rpm. The same engine (?) is rated 200hp @ 5250rpm.<br />The 175's "Full throttle operating range" is 4500 - 5500rpm.<br />The 200's "Full throttle operating range" is 4750 - 5750rpm.<br />I think maybe the hp curve starts to flatten at the rated rpm but doesn't peak until a higher rpm. <br /><br />Any other thoughts?<br /><br />c/6<br />Hooty
 

vissertrades

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Aug 16, 2003
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Re: Question regarding "LUGGING" an engine

I'm not an expert but it seems that most ob's recommended ranges are centered about the engines rated max hp (derived from dyno runs with a specific test prop?). I'm guessing, but if mass manufactured 2 stroke ob's are like auto engines (+/- 10%) the hp varies due to manufacturing tolerances, so some engines will make more hp and some less than the baseline hp-vs-rpm curve.
 
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