No forward gear on hydroelectric

[ddaigle]

First, thanks to dhadley for info. no forward gear movement from hydroelectric lower unit. reverse and nuetral work fine. have power at shift wires as expected, any thoughts? Also, now have general idea of year and hp of motor but no model or serial numbers. probably late 60's early 70's johnson 55-65 hp.can anyone recommend a service manual?

 

[Dhadley]

Re: No forward gear on hydroelectric

With the motor shut off, is it in gear?

 

[ddaigle]

Re: No forward gear on hydroelectric

no, it is not in gear with power off. prop freewheels

 

[R.Johnson]

Re: No forward gear on hydroelectric

This has got to be a electro-matic, not a hydro-electric. If you don't have a model number, can you give a better description of the engine.

 

[Dhadley]

Re: No forward gear on hydroelectric

OK. I hope its as simple as the plunger not going all the way forward in the pump. Anyway we have to get a manual. An OE manual preferably.<br /><br />Lets see....whats a way to tell??? OK, how many bolts in the thermostat housing at the top of the cylinder head? 3 or 5?

 

[ledgefinder]

Re: No forward gear on hydroelectric

Three-cylinder or four?

 

[Dhadley]

Re: No forward gear on hydroelectric

He says, in another post, that its a 3 cylinder. I guess we should have had him continue that other post. <br /><br />Sorry!

 

[Joe Reeves]

Re: No forward gear on hydroelectric

As R.J. states, I would also suspect that your engine is a straight electric shift engine.<br /><br />Describe.... 2 cyl, 3 cyl, 4 cyl? Carb throat intake is vertical downdraft, horizontal? One carb, numerous carbs?<br /><br />Pertaining to the straight electric shift, check to see, with the key on and in forward gear, if you have voltage to the "Green" wire leading to the lower unit. If you do not, therein is your problem.<br /><br />If on the other hand, you do have voltage to that "Green" wire, turn the key off, disconnect the "Green" wire at the engine, then check to see if you have a reading between that connector and the lower unit with an ohm meter.<br /><br />The exact needed reading slips my mind but someone will jump in here with that I'm sure.<br /><br />If there is no reading, you have either a broken wire between that connector and the forward magnetic coil in the lower unit... or the coil itself is faulty.<br /><br />On the other hand, If you have the proper reading, then I would suspect that you have a broken forward spring, in which case you would need to replace both the forward spring and hub.<br /><br />I may have some of those components left in my remaining stock if you can't locate them locally or on this site. If needed, see e-mail address below.

 

[ledgefinder]

Re: No forward gear on hydroelectric

I think the triples are all hydro-electric.

 

[Dhadley]

Re: No forward gear on hydroelectric

They were from 68 to 72. Everything 73 and newer had a "positive neutral" (aka manual shift).<br /><br />Here's his original post just so everybody knows where we're at;<br /><br />I have just acquired a Johnson outboard. I have searched it diligently and can find no model or serial numbers anywhere.It is a 3 cylinder with electric shift. The cowling has Stinger on it( dont know if it is original)there is no horsepower stated on it anywhere. I would like to acquire a manual as forward will not engage. Any info would be appreciated.

 

[ledgefinder]

Re: No forward gear on hydroelectric

OK, so it boils down to 1) juice inappropriately applied to a solenoid(s), or 2) the shifting mechanism is gummed or jammed up somehow. <br /><br />If you disconnect the two leads to the lower unit, then hit the starter, you should be in forward pretty right away or at least pretty quickly, and it shouldn't move out of forward unless you reconnect the leads. <br /><br />If it doesn't go to forward with the leads disconnected, then as DHadley says, something is jammed up. I'd be tempted to put in fresh lower unit fluid (how's the old fluid look, by the way?) and retry it. The electric & hydroelectric lowers take a 'special' fluid, that is lighter viscosity. You can get it from an Evirude/Johnson dealer, or Lubriplate & some others make a duplicate product. However, if it is/was jammed up, and/or if the fluid looks bad (metal chips, milky, gummed up), be aware that best practices would be to pull the unit apart & make sure the bearings, etc. are still OK. Nothing wrong with running it in low-risk situations the way it is (skiing at small lakes, etc.), but no runs way offshore in the ocean that way, etc..

 

[R.Johnson]

Re: No forward gear on hydroelectric

I've been looking at the diagram of that gearcase, and really it's hard to say what it is that's keeping it out of forward gear. One possibility, and this is only a guess is that the spring retainer may be broken. This is the componet that piston rod bears against. I think the bottom line here is that the gearcase is going to have to be tore down. Keep in mind here that this gearcase has three snap ring's that are bear trap strong, " talking to the owner here" and takes a special pliers that is quite exspensive. Even with the proper tool you want to be carefull when removing these snap rings as they are under a lot of tension. I've had more than one fly across the shop, so wear safety glass's, and don't have onlooker's.

 

[ddaigle]

Re: No forward gear on hydroelectric

Thanks for the help, I am at work so can't look at motor or reply very often. Fluid looked ok, but some water came out also, i have heard they use a special fluid, will get some asap. Looking through fill hole can see flat piece of metal covering part of hole that looks like fill screw was contacting as there is a dent in it,Very strange, also have read other posts where they have run premix in the lower unit to clean it outwith good results, good idea or not?

 

[Dhadley]

Re: No forward gear on hydroelectric

With the motor not running it should be in forward gear regardless what power is or is not going to the solenoids and regardless if any type fluid is present or not.<br /><br />Those units did stick in neutral (and move to reverse and back while running), rare but it did happen. Most of the time the plunger did not want to travel all the way forward into the pump thus the clutch dog did not engage the forward gear. When that happened, generally speaking, all that was required was to "polish" the plunger so it quit sticking. It is not necessary to remove the lower unit to do this although you will most likely want to change the water pump assembly anyway. It does however require the bearing carrier to be removed which takes the special tools mentioned.<br /><br />Once we know if you have a 68-69 55, a 70-71 60 or a 72 65 we will know which manual to get. Any should be good as far as the unit goes.

 

[kd6nem]

Re: No forward gear on hydroelectric

DHadley is absolutely correct that it should be in forward until started and placed in neutral, if indeed this is a hydro-electric shift motor. If a hydro I hope that a bunch of parts do not need changing because it may be more feasable to just replace the lower unit with a used LU (if one can be found)or replace the whole motor since parts are not inexpensive when they can be found. (Not to say that it would hurt to take a look to find out for sure) IMO, this was an over-engineered LU which was way too complex for its own good. At the same time they work really well until they do finally fall apart. They are really quick to change gears and are smooth. I'm hoping this is really a straight electric shift motor, though. A lot less part$ involved that way.<br />Personally I'm not comfortable with rinsing any LU out with premix. Those seals were not designed for gasoline, nor were the electrical wiring and solenoids. Might work OK in practice, but I don't want to be the one who finds out that it was a bad idea. Too much work to fix again! And yes, a factory manual is the only way to go. I have more questions now than when I started with since I got one of "the other" manuals.

 

[Joe Reeves]

Re: No forward gear on hydroelectric

Okay.... now that we all know what type shift it is, hopefully the following may be of some help.<br /><br />(Hydro Electric Shift)<br />(J. Reeves)<br /><br />The shifting setup of the lower unit is what's called a "Hydro Electric Shift", which is quite complex consisting of voltage being applied to solenoids in the lower unit which in turn change oil passages via a oil pump that supplies various pressure on a spring loaded shifter dog. The wires leading to the lower unit (at the powerhead) are "Green" and "Blue". The engine must be running or cranking over in order to shift out of forward gear.<br /> <br />You CAN NOT use HI VIS lube in that lower unit. You MUST USE what OMC calls "Preminum Blend" lube, commonly called "Type C". (A thinner lube) <br /><br />In neutral, you need 12v to the "Green" wire. <br />In reverse, you need 12v to both wires, the "Green" one and the "Blue" one. <br />In forward, there should be no voltage to either wire. (The spring loaded shifter dog forces the unit into forward gear) <br /><br />To check the lower unit for proper shifting to make sure you have no trouble there, remove the spark plugs to avoid problems and to allow a higher cranking speed. <br /><br />This next step eliminates the actual shift switch in case problems may exist there.... Disconnect the blue & green wires at the knife connectors (the rubber insulated boots) leading to the lower unit at the powerhead, then using jumpers, take voltage direct from the starter solenoid to apply voltage to the "Green" wire for neutral, then both wires 'Green" & "Blue" for reverse (Remember the engine must be cranking over in order to shift).<br /> <br />With no voltage applied, the unit should be in forward. No need for a ground jumper... the lower unit's already grounded. You may crank the engine with the key switch or by energizing the starter solenoid with a jumper wire.

 

[kd6nem]

Re: No forward gear on hydroelectric

Joe,<br />I hope I didn't imply I knew which type he has.<br />I thought we were still waiting to find out, but I couldn't resist sending out my 1 cents worth anyway.<br /><br />Good to hear from you, by the way. You gave me some crackerjack advice on my hydro-electric better than a year ago. You were most helpful.<br /><br />Stu

 

[Joe Reeves]

Re: No forward gear on hydroelectric

Bearcat.... No problems. Your post was taken in the helpful manner in which it was intended and no offense was taken. Hopefully my posts/replies are taken in the same helpful meant manner.

 

[kd6nem]

Re: No forward gear on hydroelectric

Joe, You've never been anything but helpful.

 

[phatmanmike]

Re: No forward gear on hydroelectric

hey ddaigle, i have 2 different manuals and a complete lower unit(blue color) from my motor which ran lean and and fried the powerhead... email me, i have everything you need<br />phatmanmike@yahoo.com

If a hydro I hope that a bunch of parts do not need changing because it may be more feasable to just replace the lower unit with a used LU (if one can be found)