Engine newbie questions...

mrspaz

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Joined
Mar 14, 2004
Messages
7
Hello,<br /><br />Being the resident mechanically inclined guy, I've been working on a friend's pontoon boat recently, and I had a few questions. We recently re-wired the entire craft without a hitch, and after some toying around, we got the engine up and running. The boat had been sitting for 7 months in a marina without being touched (not really his fault; long story). Anyways, I'm more used to 4-stroke car engines than boat motors, so this is a new experience for me.<br /><br />The boat has a '77 Johnson 85 HP outboard. After connecting a new fuel line and bulb and putting in fresh gas, it turned over and seemed to run, albeit a little rough. It looks like there was some recent work done on the engine. There are three new coils installed, and it looks like someone wrote the compression numbers on the cylinder heads (none under 115). Anyways, to cease the rambling, here are my questions:<br /><br />The plug wires looked a little beat up (cracked insulation, burn marks on the ends), so we replaced the ones coming from the new coils (more on that in a moment). This was an immediate improvement; the engine ran a lot smoother. We could not replace the cord on the old coil, since it seemed to be fixed in place on the coil and could not be removed. The engine still seems to "hiccup" occasionally at idle; should we replace this coil? There's spark at the gap, but it looks a little weak. Also, when replacing the plug wires, I just picked up a set of 4-cylinder automotive silicone-insul wires and used three from there. Will this work ok, or am I going to run into trouble later? The original configuration was simply solid core wires pushed onto the post on the coil and then butted up against the top of the spark plug; there were no "snap" connectors on the plug ends at all. I read an earlier post that said the resistance from non-solid-core plug wires might be too high for these coils, so I want to make sure I'm not headed for trouble. For what it's worth, it seems to be working fine with these wires at the moment.<br /><br />My next question is: Just how should this engine run? It seems to be running OK, but with little experience in this area, I'd like to be sure. Out of the water with the water muffs on, it idles at around 1100 RPM and sounds like some sort of monstrous lawnmower. In the water it idles around 900 or so and is relatively quiet except for a persistent exhaust "lull" (think Harley Davidson) at idle; this makes me suspect that there may be an ignition problem on one of the cylinders. If I open it up straight out on open water, it tops out at 3900 RPM. Is this normal behavior?<br /><br />Sorry for the really long post, any advice is appreciated. Thanks!<br /><br />-Jay
 

R.Johnson

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Sep 24, 2003
Messages
4,446
Re: Engine newbie questions...

These engines need solid core coil wires, not carbon core. The hic-cup you hear sounds like a lean condition at idle. The carbs probably need new kit's , and a good cleaning. I would not go by the compression figures chalked on the head, I would do my own test. With the correct prop, and set-up, this engine should tach out at about 5500 with average load. If you have a spark checker, check the output on all coils this way. Sound's like that old coil might be weak also.
 

OBJ

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Dec 27, 2002
Messages
10,161
Re: Engine newbie questions...

Hi Mrspaz and welcome to iboats...<br /><br />You do not want to use solid core wires for the spark plug leads. Use the old fashion stranded type. The solid cores have to much resistances.<br /><br />The idle sounds just about right in the water. Get some fuel system cleaner in the gas for a while and see how that does. <br /><br />Also check the engine temp while running. Don't let it over heat.
 

R.Johnson

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Re: Engine newbie questions...

What I meant was stranded core, I still think of these as solid core as apposed to the carbon core.
 

mrspaz

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Joined
Mar 14, 2004
Messages
7
Re: Engine newbie questions...

Originally posted by R.Johnson:<br />What I meant was stranded core, I still think of these as solid core as apposed to the carbon core.
Yeah, I'm with 'ya. I think the same thing.<br /><br />Thanks for the suggestions, I'll dig out my compression gauge and have my buddy get some new, stranded-core, plug wires.<br /><br />Since you guys say the idle speed sounds about right (save the hiccup), then I'm gonna blame those lost RPMs at high power on a bad carbeurator for the moment. My first suspicion would be clogged-up jets, so the first thing is going to be cleaner in the fuel and a good shot of spray-in cleaner. If that won't cut it then on to the rebuild. Do you think I'd have any trouble finding a rebuild kit at a decent price?<br /><br />I don't think heat is an issue, since it seems like water is being pulled into the engine without any trouble (and spit back out), but without a built-in temperature gauge, what do you suggest for monitoring temperature? I'd rather not be drilling the block for a temp sender, so any other suggestion is welcome :) .<br /><br />Thanks for the advice so far. This is a great board. :D
 

R.Johnson

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Sep 24, 2003
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4,446
Re: Engine newbie questions...

Don't run this engine with a clogged carb, 2 cycle engines don't like that. You will end up with a damaged piston, or cylinder bore. The only spray-in cleaner that will do any good is engine-tune which is meant to remove carbon. If you are used to automotive carb's, you will find these carb's a snap. Get a service manual on this engine, and I don't think you will have any problems.
 

roscoe

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Oct 30, 2002
Messages
21,751
Re: Engine newbie questions...

I'd put in a waterpump impeller, and install a water pressure guage. Its easier, cheaper, and gives advance warning against an overheat/water blockage situation.<br /><br />Carb kit available at dealer or at local NAPA parts counter.
 

rickdb1boat

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Jan 23, 2002
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11,195
Re: Engine newbie questions...

Yeah, I'm with Roscoe on this one. It sounds like you have a basically sound motor and you don't want to ruin it for the small cost of a pump kit. Nothing kills them faster than an overheat situation. Even if it appears to be cooling fine, if you don't know when the water pump was last replaced, I'd for sure do it now. The water pump and pressure gauge can be installed in a day, if you have a helper. Even if you can just get the pump in, you should be fine for a couple of years. The gauge, tubing and hook-up is not as daunting as it sounds. Actually much easier than the water pump. Put a pump in it now just to be sure. And most of all, get yourself a Manual..
 

OBJ

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Dec 27, 2002
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Re: Engine newbie questions...

Hey RJohnson.....ment no disrespect postin under ya' like that...I was at the shop and didn't get a chance to edit when I seen ya' beat me to tha' draw.... :)
 

R.Johnson

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Sep 24, 2003
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Re: Engine newbie questions...

OBJ! We're all here to help! bound to stumble over each other once in awhile. When we all put our head's together, thing's seem to turn out right. This board sure help's these long winter, and spring day's.
 

mrspaz

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Mar 14, 2004
Messages
7
Re: Engine newbie questions...

Thanks for all the great advice. It sounds like a manual is definitely on the "must have" list of things for this motor. When I get my hands on one I'll definitely have a look at the impeller, it was something I hadn't really thought much about yet. Any particular recommendations for repair manuals, or is there really not much of a choice?<br /><br />Does NAPA carry any other parts for marine engines (particularly this one), or just stuff like seal and carb kits? There's a marine engine service place nearby, but they specialize in Yamaha and Mercruisers and they have to order parts for just about anything else.<br /><br />Thanks again for all the help! It's nice to have someone to ask all these questions of. :D
 

OBJ

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Dec 27, 2002
Messages
10,161
Re: Engine newbie questions...

If ya' want specific how-to's for your engine, the OEM manual is the way to go. Generics, which can be bought from iboats store, will cover many engines. The Ken Cook Co. offers reprints of OEM (Johnson/Evinrude) Manuals and parts books. A quick search will find them.<br /><br />NAPA carries a lot of parts for Johnny/Rudes. You may want to check in iboats also.<br /><br />Keep us posted.
 

mrspaz

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Mar 14, 2004
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Re: Engine newbie questions...

Ok, all the parts are on the way, along with a service manual from Ken Cook Co. Most of the work should happen within the next two days, with the exception of the water pressure gauge (that's going to have to be ordered from somewhere; I couldn't find one locally that wasn't way overpriced, and my buddy's not looking to spend an arm and a leg). This is assuming I get the manual in at the same time the parts show up. :p <br /><br />Based on another post I had read here, I also picked up a can of Sea Foam treatment to de-carbon the engine. Big thanks to you guys for pointing us to NAPA. They've got a load of parts, or they can get anything in a day or two. I just never thought of them carrying marine engine parts too...<br /><br />I'll let y'all know how things turn out. We're hoping to put it (back) into the St. John's River this weekend if all goes well.
 

mrspaz

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Mar 14, 2004
Messages
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Re: Engine newbie questions...

Hey everyone...<br /><br />We did compression tests on the engine today, and there's a bit of a problem. The readings on 1,2,3,4 were: 95, 105, app. 101, app. 98. I checked the head gaskets and didn't see anything obvious, but they did appear pretty old and were starting to flake around the edges. I replaced the spark plugs on the adjoining cylinders to make sure the seals were still good between cylinders, and everything checked out. I also ran through SeaFoam as recommended on this board, hoping to get the compression numbers closer together, but they stubbornly stayed right where they were. I'm still going to go ahead and rebuild the carbs and put in the impeller kit tomorrow (the new coil and plug wires went in today).<br /><br />The big question now is, how much power is being lost with compression down that low? Also, with 1 and 2 being basically at 10% difference, I'm thinking there's not much I can do with changing the fuel or anything to try and compensate? <br /><br />I'm going to try and visually inspect the cylinders tomorrow with a mirror to make sure that they aren't scored. If they look like they're in good shape, I might try replacing the head gaskets for laughs to see if that does anything, but I'm thinking maybe we should just hold off on that and put in new gaskets at the same time as a ring job. If it comes down to new rings, it'll have to go to a shop. I can definitely do the work, but I really don't want to get into opening the crank case, popping the pins, re-timing, etc. etc. I think my buddy would also be more comfortable with a shop that can warrant their work and can replace the engine should there be some sort of mishap ;) . <br /><br />Any opinions and advice are appreciated, I'd really like to know what you guys think.<br /><br />Thanks!!
 

OBJ

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Dec 27, 2002
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Re: Engine newbie questions...

MrSpaz....I don't think the compression readings are bad at all. Fact, I think there darn good for an engine that old. Get the boat on the water and run it some and then do another decarb. I'm curious, are you sure the engine was up on temp before applying the SeaFoam?
 

Solittle

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Apr 28, 2002
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7,518
Re: Engine newbie questions...

Those compression readings actually may not be that bad. Try the decarb routine, run the crap out of it and check the compression again if you think necessary. I wouldn't do a thing other than new head gaskets. Also if you check compression again see if you can use another guage as the guage itself may be off a bit.
 

mrspaz

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Mar 14, 2004
Messages
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Re: Engine newbie questions...

OBJ:<br /><br />Yeah, I'd run the engine for a while before that to get it up to temp for the compression test, then gave it another run before running the SeaFoam gas through it to make sure it was good and warm. The stuff definitely had an effect, it just didn't seem to pull the numbers any closer together.<br /><br />If y'all think those numbers aren't bad, then I'm not going to worry about them for right now. I was mainly concerned from reading a lot of dire posts on here with people proclaiming anything below 100 as certain doom. :) I'm sure the gauge was good, it's pretty new and I don't think it's fallen out of calibration.<br /><br />When we take it out tomorrow I'll be sure we get into a lake where we can open it up a bit and run it for a while (most of the St. John's is minimum wake / no wake manatee zone). I'll let you know how things turn out. :)
 

mrspaz

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Mar 14, 2004
Messages
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Re: Engine newbie questions...

For anyone interested, everything went pretty well this weekend. The engine ran a lot smoother, managed to eke about 200 RPMs higher than last trip out of it. I say pretty well because after we got the boat back to my buddy's house, we realized that the lower unit was leaking oil out of the prop shaft. Putting new seals into that looks to be a barrel of monkeys for sure, but I think we can handle it ;) . I've got some other "ideas," but I think I'll post them later on in a new thread. Thanks again for all the help!
 
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