Rivets vs. Welds

[Capn Mike]

Re: Rivets vs. Welds

You'll notice all those expressing satisfaction with riveted boats are in fresh-water, fly-over country. I don't see a lot of airplanes nor riveted boats living in salt or brackish water. Nor are they any.....thats any...riveted white water boats (neither drift boats or jet boats).<br /><br />The reasons are various: 1) most riveted aluminum boats are not built of salt-water resistant alloy; 2) even tho aluminum, the rivets are usually a different alloy, thus allowing galvanic action; 3) riveted boats are significantly thinner than welded boats (that I've seen). As long as you keep them in fresh water, a good riveted boat will last you years and years. But put them in salt water, and even if you hose them down every day, they'll last no more that 5-10 years.<br /><br />My brother has the ubiquitous Smokercraft Alaskan...see them all over the Columbia River. But as soon as he started using it in Tillemook Bay, within 4 years, almost every rivet began seeping. Alaska charters use riveted boats usually no more than 3 years.<br /><br />To state that "welded hulls are never as true as a fiberglass hull" is ridiculous. There are at least 50 manufacturers of welded aluminum boats in the PacNW who would take money on that bet. They have experienced work forces, time-tested jigs, thousands of satisfied customers. And you pay for this quality...a typical PacNW welded AL boat is more costly than a similar fiberglass boat.<br /><br />But maybe there's really no discussion: comparing a Duckworth, Coastal Craft or Silver Streak to a Lund or Starcraft is like comparing a Filson coat to a Wal-mart jacket: both will keep you warm (at least for a while), but the Filson will be something you can hand down to your kids....<br /><br />OK, maybe I could learn to do better comparisons....

 

[Barlow]

Re: Rivets vs. Welds

nope .. that was pertty good C.Mike. At least I can relate .. own a few Filson articles my self .. one upland vest thats was handed down to me by my grandfather.<br /><br /> I own a 19' pro-v Lund BTW .. and couldn't agree more.. but those NW river boats are like comparing Apples to Oranges ... a whole different "animal", if you will.

 

[Boatist]

Re: Rivets vs. Welds

I am a welded fan but have to disagree with Capn Mike. Where I fish out of Bodega Bay I see lots of Starcraft Aluminum boat over 20 years old. Only difference I see in them is when they wash down they pull the plug and drain the saltwater then flush the bilge before putting the plug back in.<br /><br />One other thing is boats with rivets create a lot more turbluence ahead of your transducer so you need to mount it deeper.<br /><br />Out here All the sherrif and Police boats are welded aluminum they just hold up better and use less fuel.<br /><br />Compareing aluminum to Fiberglass boats all I can say is used fiberglass boats are real cheap. Once in a great while you will find one with a normal higher price. Very rare for Fiberglass boats to be over 10 to 15 years old and be asking a normal price. That is because most the stringer are rotted out and can not support the hull at all. Why dont Fiberglass boats at least use Aluminum Stringers and hull support? <br /><br />Cboat<br />If you are going to with a riveted boat I think Lund is a great choice. Compare it to Crestliner. I love My 1980 Crestliner, Lifetime hull warranty and 3 year on everything elese. I take the plug out one time a year when I clean the bilge. I do keep it covered winter and summer.<br /><br />Lund Lovers anyone know of a web site you can find how thick the hull is and how much the boat weighs, what the dead rise is and the HP rateings for the one I/O boat they have the 2150. One would think they would want you to know but somehow I missed it on their site.<br /><br /> http://www.crestliner.com/

 

[LJaxin]

Re: Rivets vs. Welds

how does everyone think of crestliner 1950 sportfish or a suncruiser tahiti 224. Any ideas on if you would choose one or another. I am about 60/40 with fishing and wakeboarding/water sports. Little more on the fishing side. Anyone know which is better built and for about the same price, which would last me longer? Both are aluminum, just wondering which manufacturer takes more pride in their products?

 

[sloopy]

Re: Rivets vs. Welds

Originally posted by Upinsmoke:<br /> Just a thought, but did you ever see an all-welded aircraft?

eclipseaviation.com

 

[waterinthefuel]

Re: Rivets vs. Welds

Just a thought, but did you ever see an all-welded aircraft?

Irrelevant, airplane skins must be removable for various reasons. It also provides almost zero structural integrity. The fusalage of an airplane is welded steel. Wing spars are welded. Welds are always stronger.<br /><br />Eclipse aviation? That's not all welded, thats a composite airframe. There are no rivets, but it's composite.

 

[KRS]

Re: Rivets vs. Welds

So, chevy or ford? anyone

 

[KCook]

Re: Rivets vs. Welds

Originally posted by Jaxin:<br /> how does everyone think of crestliner 1950 sportfish or a suncruiser tahiti 224 ....

That comparison is pretty much apples vs oranges. As the Crestliner is a traditional "deep-V" design for rough lakes. While the Suncruiser (by Lowe) is a deckboat for entertaining folks on milder water. When the water is calm enough for water sports then the Suncruiser should be fine. Get caught in a storm and you will wish you were in the Crestliner for sure. Some folks will chance a change in weather, some won't.<br /><br />Kelly

 

[Tail_Gunner]

Re: Rivets vs. Welds

This question is to funny, there is no comparison here welding is beyond reapproach riveting is old world tech. Dont like that well read a bit, now with that said if you create a sloppy weld well its the welder not the tech.

 

[Boatist]

Re: Rivets vs. Welds

I have a 1980 Crestliner 21 foot closed bow Runabout. I use it in the Pacific Ocean, San Francisco bay and the delta. Also many lakes an rivers. Only problem I found was was all the screws and bolts were stainless steel but on the back side of bolts they used a galvanized nut. After about 5 years I took off a side panel and noticed some of the nuts had some rust showing.<br /><br />I wrote Crestliner to get some new slides for the top and side curtains and also mentioned I though they should have used stainless steel on the nuts also. I expected to have to buy the plastic slides and expected nothing for the nuts.<br />About a week later I got a package from Crestliner and it had all the Nylon sides I was looking for and two boxes of 100 nuts. Also a letter saying free of charge. They did not expect the Galvanized nuts to rust on the under side of decks or the back side of panels where they are out of the weather.<br /><br />Since then the company has been sold, but still have a lifetime hull warranty and 3 years on everything. I have been disappointed in them since they were sold as they no longer have 24 foot deep V hulls and no longer sell any closed Bow boats. Fishing in the Pacific Ocean with 8 foot swells every 8 seconds I just feel the closed bow is safer. However for you the Fish and Ski models should be perfect. They have a lot of neat conversion to change a fishing boat to a Ski boat in under 5 minutes.<br /><br />I copied their current warranty form their site below. I do not know the other boat you talked about but I have been very happy with out 1980 Crestliner. I just wish they still made the bigger boats.<br /><br />Boat has never leaked one drop ever.<br /><br /> <br />Crestliner's LIFETIME+3 Protection Plan... Your ultimate assurance of quality.<br />If another boat maker claims to be better than Crestliner, ask about their warranty. It won't touch ours. Only Crestliner offers the non-prorated LIFETIME+3 Protection Plan that covers hull welds for the original owner for life. Other warranties might say 20-years, 50-years or even "lifetime." But read their fine print and their claims crumble. In addition to our lifetime hull protection, we cover virtually everything else from bow-to-stern for 3 years. If, for example, your bilge pump goes south on a Crestliner, we replace it. If that happens on another brand, you're probably sunk.

 

[Gone]

Re: Rivets vs. Welds

I had a similar conversation with our Canadian resort owner/guide.<br />His opinion was that due to the numerous rocks in his area (Lac Seul) the welded boat held up better. The rivited hull would get pounded on the rocky shore and develop leaks sooner.<br />Personally, I have had several rivited boats with no problems encountered. Then again, I only have sand, no rocks to contend with. I guess you have to base your decision on the environment you'll use it on.<br /><br />CD

 

[sloopy]

Re: Rivets vs. Welds

Originally posted by waterinthefuel:<br />

Just a thought, but did you ever see an all-welded aircraft?

Irrelevant, airplane skins must be removable for various reasons. It also provides almost zero structural integrity. The fusalage of an airplane is welded steel. Wing spars are welded. Welds are always stronger.<br /><br />Eclipse aviation? That's not all welded, thats a composite airframe. There are no rivets, but it's composite.

Wrong again. Do you know how most cessnas get there strength?<br /><br />The eclipse is aluminum.

 

[lingcod]

Re: Rivets vs. Welds

quote:<br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br /> Just a thought, but did you ever see an all-welded aircraft? <br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br /><br />Irrelevant, airplane skins must be removable for various reasons. It also provides almost zero structural integrity. The fusalage of an airplane is welded steel. Wing spars are welded. Welds are always stronger.<br /><br />Eclipse aviation? That's not all welded, thats a composite airframe. There are no rivets, but it's composite. <br /><br />I spent alot of years bucking rivets and pulling hucks on the boeing 747. there is not a weld one on this aircraft. the rivets are there to allow for replacement of the structure if it is ever damaged without having to do major repairs. the planes come in so many individual pieces that any one piece can be replaced without alot of disturbance to the surrounding area.

 

[sloopy]

Re: Rivets vs. Welds

An airliner is a different animal, I don't know of many pressurized boats.<br /><br />YOU CAn not remove all the skin on a 172 or what not without doing serious work (it is not part of the annual). The skin on most general aviation aircraft provides most of the structural support to the airframe, this is called a monocoque design. Many larger jets are semi-monocoque which means that the frame is most of the structural integrity of the aircraft. <br /><br />The eclipse used modern materials (aluminum) with new age manufacturing methods (some fancy welding thing). The only composite parts on the Eclipse airframe are some trim pieces and what not.

 

[MajBach]

Re: Rivets vs. Welds

I spent a lot of time and research before on rivets/welds before I purchased my Sylvan. MY personal view is that the 'leaking' issue is trivial at best. Any decent size tin boat that's too large to flip over and do a quick rivet repair job will easily have one or two bilge pumps, so who cares if one or two gallons leaks in every hour? <br />The boat I replaced was a 1968 Sears 14' that my father purchased when I was born. We conservatively calculated this boat (and one 1964 Evinrude 18hp)has travelled the equivalent to around the world; and we overloaded it and pounded the crap out of it! It did leak, but after 30 years, through less than a dozen rivets. <br />Obviously there is no clear cut answer between which method of manufacture is better, because even the experts cant agree and we see both types on the market in almost equal proportions with no difference in price on equivalent sizes.<br />If I were to but another aluminum, I would strongly lean toward welded simply because of the smoother hull - I am sick of losing my sonar signal.<br />Finally, don't go by warranties. The Crestliner warranty is absolutley meaningless. The one salesguy from Crestliner we dealt with would have me believe that the warranty alone is why I should have bought his boat. I told him that welded boats must not be up to par with rivetted if they need to be backed by such a strong warranty. He replies that in 20 + years he has NEVER seen a warranty claim on a Crestliner hull to which I shot back that his warranty must be moot since no one ever needs to use it and therefore not a reason whatsoever to consider as a selling point for Crestliner. I asked him specifically what the warranty covers on the hull in which he couldnt give me a straight answer. So I then asked to see a copy of the warrranty. He fumbled around for a few minutes before informing me he did't have a copy of one. I exlaimed 'the famous Crestliner warranty', and Ontario's largest dealer doesn't have a copy? This was out 3rd visit to this store and we WERE buying a boat this day. I told the guy if he couldn't produce a copy of the warranty, there was no way I was going to buy a Crestliner. He went on about how 'everyone knows' blah blah blah. When I told him that the ONLY way I was going to buy a boat from him is if I first had something in writing about warranty coverage or dealer coverage, he finally was forthcoming. He told me that ONLY the welds and 1/2 inch on either side are covered by the warranty and NOT the rest of the hull. I told him to stick it up his ars and we left and bought a Sylvan. Anyone that has welded aluminum knows that the weld ( as stated in this thread several times ) is far stronger than the surrounding aluminum - well duh, obvious, no? The weakest part is about an inch away from the weld caused by the heat from welding. Like I said, Crestliners warranties are USELESS. Although, this certainly doesn't mean Crestliner is.

 

[RobDar]

Re: Rivets vs. Welds

my opinion on welded versus rivets...and fiberglass versus aluminum...<br />The first most important thing is to know where, how and for what the boat will be used. ( I am excluding cheaply built boats from these comments)<br /><br />It is not which is better...it is choosing the RIGHT BOAT FOR YOUR USAGE! as an example...<br />I live near chicago and lake michigan...If I were prone to fishing "the big lake" as we refer to it, I would not choose a small mod-v or flat bottom style boat...but a V hull...and probably fiberglass to accomidate for the rougher and sudden change in water conditions on lake michigan...<br />if you typically are on inland lakes then that changes what you need...<br />I typically fish inland lakes and rivers...so I prefer an aluminum boat...they are lighter, easier to tow, need less horsepower thus less gas, and on the rivers I do not have to worry about little bumps and clunks which on a fiberglass can be expensive to repair. My father in law and I bumped the same stump going through a channel...I got a little surface scratch, easily touched up im my back yard...he got a decent scratch with some sub surface damage that cost him $400 to have repaired.<br />whether that boat was rivets or welded or fiberglass???<br />The comment that a cheaply built boat is a cheaply built boat is very true! and good advice!<br />My next boat will be a welded boat...is that because they are better??? actually..not really...here is why...<br />this is advice from my mechanic...<br />The welded hull typically carry a better, longer warranty than do the riveted ( because the manufactuers so strongly believe in their new welded hulls) and there are less loopholes for the manufactuer to jump through if there is a problem. If a weld cracks...and there are no signs of collision or misuse...it is pretty much thier problem...on the riveted the manufactuers have a thousand excuses of how a leak is your fault...<br /><br />I use a bass style boat with decks etc etc...so access to the rivets is covered and difficult...if I were buying an open bow or sport style boat with just a couple screws to pull to get to the sub structure...I would not care about riveted at all. You can repair leaky rivets yourself. Someone ( i do not know who) sells a tool kit with a brass block, set tool and brass hammer...my cousin just repaired three leaky rivets in his old open bottom v hull with this kit and it did wonderfully.<br /><br /><br />I do not think that it is a matter of which is better...<br />I think that it is most important to:<br />1. buy a good quality boat.<br />2. choose the right boat for your needs.

 

[paulie0735]

Re: Rivets vs. Welds

this ones easy............ buy a fiberglass boat that has been welded together with alloy rivets!

 

[phatmanmike]

Re: Rivets vs. Welds

my 1961 john boat is riveted and it still works great

 

[Twidget]

Re: Rivets vs. Welds

Just a thought, but did you ever see an all-welded aircraft?

Nope, I sure havent, but then I have never seen a riveted ship. Aircraft also tend to not do to well in the floating dept. <br /><br />Having said that, I would rather have a quality riveted boat than a cheaply made welded craft. <br /><br />With the freshwater area I boat, either rivets or welding work well.

 

[ss5358]

Re: Rivets vs. Welds

I am an industrial Engineer and work the Boeing Company. Either type of Aluminum boat is good. However as with anything application can determine which to buy. The statements regarding leaking of riveted boats due to saltwater immersion later in this thread are somewhat misleading. Using new annodes each year and assuring galvanic action is not causing corrision will assure rivets stay firm. Galvanic action also affects welded boats especially on the welded seams so this applies to them as well. I have operated a 22 ft Smokercraft for 10 years out of Ilwaco Washington. It sits in saltwater all spring and summer and I fish almost every weekend in the ocean, crossing the Columbia River bar each time. No problems there. Again fresh annodes are the key. Also check that they are working (are they pitting properly). If this is not the case then you will end up with leaking rivets and a weak hull.

Welded boats are great for smaller applications. Say 20 ft and under. Over that they are actually pretty heavy and cumbersome. Riveted boats tend to take flexing and compression better on the larger boats. 20ft and under especially with jet drives and in river conditions, welded boats cannot be beat.

Steve