Honing the cylinder

[Tinkerer]

Re: Honing the cylinder

Originally posted by Bozza:<br /> My engine seized because salt water got into the Piston. I pulled apart my motor and Pulled out the rusted Piston.

Maybe we need to go back a step or two instead of focusing on the initial question about honing.<br /><br />Salt water can't get into the piston because the piston is a solid object that just sits in the cylinder. Did salt water get into the cylinder? Or the block below the piston? Or both?<br /><br />Seizing is a different issue to just light corrosion on the cylinder walls. If the rings were seized to the walls by corrosion it's a pretty serious bit of corrosion and the rings and ring grooves probably need attention. The bore, rings and piston may have been scored or otherwise damaged by corrosion or extracting the seized piston. <br /><br />If the piston was corrosion seized to the cylinder the con rod top and bottom ends might be damaged as well. Along with any other part inside the motor.<br /><br />I'd get the piston and the cylinder professionally inspected to see what needs to be done before going any further.<br /><br />How did salt water get into the block or cylinder? Immersion or something else? If it's something else a hone ain't going to fix it.<br /><br />A mower shop is as good a place as any to get it all inspected.

 

[lark2004]

Re: Honing the cylinder

very good point, all the rest has been fun to discus, and some great ideas put forward, but it ain't gonna help if there is a more serious problem that need to be fixed first.

 

[P.V.]

Re: Honing the cylinder

Do a search for "ball hones"! Much ezier to use than a stone style unit. No "chattering" or edges that get caught and screw-up an edge. Tell the napa store the bore you have and they'll get you a hone slightly larger with a medium grit. Use a drill motor ( on a fairly slow speed with a "wiping action", in a solvent tank, it will take about 2 minutes or so. Stone hones are difficult to use and really for a bore with no ports! I've used ball hones for years /decades!!

 

[walleyehed]

Re: Honing the cylinder

Ball-hones are a NO-NO for ported cylinders....They remove material from one side of the port....you have it backwards.

 

[bozza_boatie]

Re: Honing the cylinder

My engine seized after my dad tipped it upside down to get petrol out. Sorrry salt water got into the cylinder not the piston. The salt water seized the engine but there is no visable rust and there is deffenenty no damage on the con rod top. <br />I will take my Outboard to my Local Victa lawn mower shop and get it checked out.<br />Thank you for all the help.

 

[Dhadley]

Re: Honing the cylinder

Heres food for thought -- in the APBA SST classes its actually illegal to chamfer the port edges after a bore.

 

[P.V.]

Re: Honing the cylinder

Walleyehed, beg to differ. Yes they do champfer the ports, however, one could argue that the piston ring may be less likely to "catch" on a sharp port. The same could be held true that a stone hone can catch on a port and do additional dammage. In the APBA "stock" classes it's not kosher because it's not that way from the factory, not because a motor won't live a long and productive life!! The APPA outlaws it cause they want eveyone to abide by the same rules. Could we surmise that using a ball give one an advantage?? and that's why it's outlaw'd? I could'nt see them outlawing using ball hones cause it "blows up" your engine! Racers would learn real fast that ball hones were the wrong way to go, if that were the case!!! I would challange anyone to compare the time and effort it takes do both with a ball hone and a stone hone. Either is OK, I just state that a ball hone is much ez'ier and faster. If you think that your motor will perform less or die sooner, I would argue that point 'till I see pigs fly'n. oink, oink !!!

 

[tvpear12]

Re: Honing the cylinder

honing will not take enough out to have to shamfer. If it does you used the wrong grit or honed for to long and may have had the hone to tight. I am a machinist and know this to be true. just break the suface and you will be fine. if it requires that much honing to clean it up you need to bore to the next size. yes agree that berry hones or ball hones that you call it, is trouble waiting for a place to happen. berry hones also will not give you a crosshatch, a plateau finish is what you get with a berry hone. hope this helps.

 

[walleyehed]

Re: Honing the cylinder

P.V., Ball hone can cause problems slapping against the ports on one side, don't care what's "Legal". If it pounds on it enough, the rings want to expand outward at that point and catch-the same thing that happens when an inexperienced person tries to chamfer a port and causes too large of a radius....the ball hone does the damage to the ports, not the stone (flat).<br />Dhadley, I'd like to hear your thoughts on a ball vs. a flat stone...I understand the issue with chamfering, I do mine with light crokus cloth by hand, no grinder involved.<br />EDIT: Some of you are making me think I waisted my time building and racing snowmobile engines for Team Yamaha (3 U.S. titles in 6 years)<br />Not to mention the outboards I've been building and offering a 1 year warranty on for years, and have never had an engine come back.....guess I was doing it wrong all along....learn something new every day.<br />EDIT#2 I just remembered WHY I have taken on guiding as a 3/4-time business......

 

[R.Johnson]

Re: Honing the cylinder

One other thing I could add here when it come's to using a hone. I would call the ball type, or the straight type which are spring loaded as glaze breakers, not a true hone. A hone will bring a cylinder to finish size while maintaining a straight hole. A glaze breaker, because of it's design can't do that. The only hone that I'm aware of that is used in a hand held drill that will truly act as hone is the Sunnen, there are probably others. The Sunnen hone is used with 2 straight stones, and 2 wipers that are spaced 90 degrees apart. It is an exspensive tool, and something you would not want to buy for a one time job. As Kenny pointed out, you just want to break the edge on the port. It takes a steady hand to do that with a die grinder. As for this post! we are talking about a little 4 HP fishing motor, they can be quite forgiving as far as honing, or port chamfering goes. The bigger the engine, and it's RPM range, the more critical this process becomes.

 

[Dhadley]

Re: Honing the cylinder

Everybody has made good points. What I was trying to point out was that important as it is to chamfer, its not likely a ring will catch on a properly honed cylinder even if it isnt chamfered. Logic says it will but......<br /><br />Ball hones or brush hones have been used for years. While I personally dont like them because you have no control on how much they take out - or where - lots of people have used them with no problems. In my motors I really like the plateau hone finish. <br /><br />Now this whole thing is based on the actual honing process not sizing. Size is a whole different issue. <br /><br />Obviously I like the rigid stone hone with an auto feed like a Sunnen CK-10 or 616. Some folks like to bore within .0005 and hone out the last 1/2 thousand. Some prefer to hone out the last 2 thou. <br /><br />Lots of preferences.

 

[walleyehed]

Re: Honing the cylinder

Sorry to be so jumpy here guys..I guess I've seen too many do-it-yourselfers that had too much know-it-all, ruin a good thing by not researching or listening.....maybe it only happens here.???...<br />I use a sunnen 4-blade (2 stone, 2 wiper) for 2 reasons...#1, it will show imperfections or irregularities with a light, quick swipe.<br />#2, it is the only way to de-glaze or finish-hone to a flush, true surface.<br />Now, that being said, and the original topic in mind, we're talking a std bore that basically just needs cleaned up. There is a factory chamfer, but because we aren't "Boring", we are not going to remove the chamfer to any serious degree, so that most likely won't be an issue, but I still (By hand)run a piece of crokus over the port "just in case".<br />I also use Dhadley's formula mentioned above by leaving .0005 to finish-hone. It takes more than a person might believe to remove a 1/2 thou.<br />I apologize for being a peterhead above but I still would never recommend a ball-type hone for work of ANY sort on a ported cylinder.

 

[Dhadley]

Re: Honing the cylinder

Never a need to apologize for something you believe in and that works for you.

 

[P.V.]

Re: Honing the cylinder

I also am sometimes guilty of trying to make my point in an overly ambitious way!!It must be my "witty, sarcastic humor" that pi**es people off!! I will not beat this post into the ground however! This makes my 30th year trying to make a living as a outboard mechanic (OMC MasterTech, back when it ment something)) and have had many,many wonderful rebuilds using ball hones.Many more than I can remember, that's for sure! "Deglazing", if you will, not taking down 3 or 4 thousanths of hard cast iron!! Anything beyond good cross-hatch and it goes to the machine shop!! Have a good day!! I think I'll go play in the snow now!!

 

[walleyehed]

Re: Honing the cylinder

Snow here in NW Kansas too, P.V....Have fun!

 

[bozza_boatie]

Re: Honing the cylinder

So why cant I just use sand paper instead of a hone? Dont they do the same thing?

 

[bozza_boatie]

Re: Honing the cylinder

I would use 1200 wet and dry sand paper. I dont see how it can do any damage.

 

[lark2004]

Re: Honing the cylinder

Do not use sand paper, no matter how fine. The problem that you can't see, is that by useing sand paper, you will apply uneven presure to the bore, and will make it out of round. Get the bore honed properly. Here in Australia, MSAA or any reputable power gardening shop can do this for you at a very reasonable rate. Probably cheaper than buying a hone yourself, especially since this is probably a one off job.

 

[G DANE]

Re: Honing the cylinder

This is not going to be popular, but I once succesfully did what you are planning. I took a long drill, wrapped a cut piece of regular cushion foam around and the sand paper around the foam. Removed the rust in a snap, leaving a fine finish with a very light crosspattern. But what do I know. Now I bought myself the proper tool

 

[Tinkerer]

Re: Honing the cylinder

Originally posted by G DANE:<br /> This is not going to be popular, but I once succesfully did what you are planning. I took a long drill, wrapped a cut piece of regular cushion foam around and the sand paper around the foam. Removed the rust in a snap, leaving a fine finish with a very light crosspattern. But what do I know. Now I bought myself the proper tool

I'm not recommending this for a combustion cylinder but I've used it succesfully on other cylinder shapes for rust removal. It's particularly handy for small diameters. <br /><br />Cut a slot lengthways in a piece of timber dowel or plastic rod and put it in a drill chuck. Slip the slot over a suitable size piece of sandpaper part way along the paper's length. Turn the dowel in the direction of the drill's rotation to twist the paper around it. You've now got a flap wheel that fits any size cylinder and can be replaced in a few seconds as the paper wears down. <br /><br />It's advantages over G Dane's method are that there's no pressure on the metal so it's (theoretically?) gentler on it. You can also get it into smaller cylinders as there's no foam behind the paper.<br /><br />Bozza needs a hone because his post of 5 January says there's no visible rust, so he's deglazing.