Yamaha 1991 broken bolts nightmare

[Fjbango]

have a 200TXRP since 3 years from orig owner. telltale pisser quitted and decided to replace water pump. lower unit removed w/o problems BUT 2 bolts of the water pump broke during removal. impeller was fine so decided to check thermostats and bypass valve. both items need attention but none convinced me to be the source of my problem.<br />Now the nightmare begin:<br />two screws of the port thermostat broke, this forced me to remove the port side cylinder head cover (18 screws), broke about 7 of them, some at the very bottom of the head cover. The lower cowling blocks/limits the access to these screws therefore I think I need to take out the powerhead.<br />Already started to remove the 6 long screws on the upper casing and one was already broken I broke 4 and only one will go out.<br />By now you will be thinking I was unscrewing the bolts with a hacksaw and a chisel, nope! was soaking the bolts on PB Blaster, using a torch, tapping on the heads w/pneumatic chipping hammer, and using a pneumatic impact 1/2" gun on low torque first and gradually increasing it.<br />I am not sure to be able to pry out the powerhead since 5 out of the 6 long upper casing screws broke by the "head" and the rest of the screw (~4") is still there and "frozen-melted-salted-corroded-etc" inside the manifold exhaust guide and other adjacent parts.<br />I think I will need to sacrifice the upper casing and the manifold exaust guide to be able to remove the powerhead.<br />The POwerhead was OK, pushing the boat (1991 Proline 230) to 40 mi/h and worked fine for the age.<br /><br />Please, any help, Idea, or suggestion will be very very welcome.<br />Frank

 

[andy6374]

Re: Yamaha 1991 broken bolts nightmare

Damm. You started off with a small hole and you just kept on digging . Sorry to hear it. When Rodbolt is back from vacation I'm sure he can point help out here, he's the resident Yammy (as well as merc,omc...) expert.<br /><br />Your story doesn't comfort me because I have to replace my head gaskets this winter. I have a Mapp torch and of course PB blaster and I thought this would be enough. If you had to do it again, what might you do different?

 

[tommays]

Re: Yamaha 1991 broken bolts nightmare

i lost count and am not trying to be a wise guy BUT with that many broken bolts unless your a drilling expert i think its over<br /><br />hardware left in to long kills every brand and type of marine power<br /><br />tommays

 

[Fjbango]

Re: Yamaha 1991 broken bolts nightmare

Thanks for your responses! <br />Sympathy is as welcome as help.I'm looking forward to hear some advice from Rodbolt.<br /><br />Andy6374: I am not sure what your scenario with your head gaskets will be, but my expertise with broken bolts so far is this: some break other don't. and there is no much room to avoid this.<br />You only know when they turn and MOVE OUT or they turn and BREAK!.<br /><br />From what I saw so far, not only the threads get stucked but also the shank or body of the bolt, making it harder to get it loose.<br />I have a mapp torch and also the cheappy mapp-oxi combo from Home Depot this one can concentrate the heat and achieve higher temperature on the bolt or surroundings BUT still the metal mass of the motor dissipates this heat and cools very quickly. I spray (a lot of) PB Blaster while it is hot so when it cools and contract the liquid get sucked inside (I hope at least).<br /><br />CARE with the TORCH, HOT SURFACES, GASOLINE, OIL, PB BLASTER etc all this could mean FIRE!!<br /><br />Tommays: The two initially broken bolts from the water pump are out. Drilling, "easy-out" kit, then re-drilling one broken "easy-out", etc etc. BUT the lower unit is OK and ready for assembly. THe powerhead is still the big headache.<br />I think if I have a chance to work the bolts (or what is left of them) I may save the engine. Besides, if I am going to throw it away (I can't remove the old powerhead) I could try to dissasemble first.<br /><br />I want to add that the real cause of the problem (I hope) was the port side head cover gasket that was rusted and perforated. this hole fully bypasses the thermostat on this side and allow the cooling water to run free therefore not enough pressure for the pisser (was also a bit clogged) this excess flow on the port side, diminished the cooling water on the starboard side. So I feel like all this has been necesary.<br />I bought the Yamaha OEM service manual (waiting for it) also a set of left hand drill bits, some other sort of easy-out which are intended for nuts but if you get the small ones, they could grab the shank of the bolt from the outside.<br />I rest here, dont want to make my posting longer.<br />Keep posting!<br />Thanks... Frank

 

[Privateer]

Re: Yamaha 1991 broken bolts nightmare

Frank,<br />You may have already done this, but have searched the forums for old topics involving broken bolts? There are some really good ones in the Yamaha forum and probably more on the other forums as well. Rodbolt and others have detailed their experiences on broken bolts and powerhead removal. Drilling jigs, heli-coils, bolt extractors, etc., etc.,etc.<br />Good luck with it. Let us know how it goes.

 

[tommays]

Re: Yamaha 1991 broken bolts nightmare

when they wont move you need to stop at a Reasonable point and slowely work them back and forth to try and break the salts grip<br /><br />i just spent 2 hours removeing 2 bolts from my merc upper with a full size torch <br /><br />on a bolt size X i know it will break off at 40 ft of torque so i just work it below that level and hope for the best<br /><br /><br />tommays

 

[Fjbango]

Re: Yamaha 1991 broken bolts nightmare

Yes I think I went through all "broken bolts" threads, also some other related to water pump, powerheads etc etc. Very interesting all of them and helpful. I saw a lot of bolt headaches too!<br />My biggest mistake was not to assess IF I actually have a cooling or a "pisser" problem, anyways this is ancient history and I am riding this rollercoaster already so, I can't do anything but to "enjoy" the ride to the end.<br />I am on this issue since a month already. the difficult part is how to make the PB Blaster and/or the torch heat to actually reach and dislodge the "rusty-salty-metaldecayed compund" that forms around a sucked bolt.. most of them are 2 inches long, others (6 @ the upper casing) are about 4-5 inches. there is no way you can force PB Blaster to penetrate that deep.<br /><br />I guess I should let a couple days go by, wait for my OEM service manual, also I hope Rodbolt will add some expert advice as he always do.<br />Broken bolts seems to be part of salt water engines like sauce is to meatballs.<br /><br />I think I will need to destroy/sacrifice part of the powerhead mounting in order to get the powerhead loose. THis is my main question now, I see no alternative other than this in order to get access to the "bolt leftovers" and be able to have a chance to remove them and save the powerhead.<br />I checked price for the parts and I am around $750 which is not that bad for all the havoc I created.<br />FRank

 

[Fjbango]

Re: Yamaha 1991 broken bolts nightmare

I got the Yamaha OEM service manual today. seems to be very descriptive.<br />Keep posting.<br />Thanks<br />Frank

 

[Capt Ken]

Re: Yamaha 1991 broken bolts nightmare

First mistake was continuing to attempt to remove the rest of the bolts after you broke the first one. You DO NOT attempt to remove any bolts from any salt water engine unless you have a torch ready to heat the outside housing when they feel tight. There's no way you are gonna be able to hand drill that many bolts and keep the holes straight. To drill the broken bolts in the lower part of the block, the powerhead will have to be removed from the exhaust housing. If you attempt this yourself, expect more broken bolts. When those twist off, you might as well scrap the engine. You are fixing to spend a butt load of money to correct your gung ho'ness.

 

[Fjbango]

Re: Yamaha 1991 broken bolts nightmare

You are absolutely right Capt'n. I am forced to remove the powerhead at any cost if I want to have a shot to save the engine.<br />I don't have any way back though, I burnt the bridges behind me.<br />Any help on how to continue forward is apreciated.<br />Thanks<br />Frank

 

[dorkhead]

Re: Yamaha 1991 broken bolts nightmare

Wow this is like a horror movie.

 

[pine island fred]

Re: Yamaha 1991 broken bolts nightmare

You are certainly not the first for this to happen. You have lots of company. Wish I could help. Just know when to walk away from it. regards fred

 

[Capt Ken]

Re: Yamaha 1991 broken bolts nightmare

Ask around your area for someone familiar with Yamaha's. Not some come lately 90 wonder just out of school. Walk in and look as pitiful as you can with your checkbook held out in front as a offering. Ask for mercy because removing the powerhead is not for the faint of heart and will take someone with experience. You twist those bolts off and ya got a peck of trouble. While the powerhead is off, replace the shift shaft. You have the older, non-stainless one and should be ready to rust in half by now.

 

[Capt Ken]

Re: Yamaha 1991 broken bolts nightmare

If you have trouble finding someone, let me know. I'll call Tim the Yamaha tech rep that lives south of you and ask him who he would reccommend.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Yamaha 1991 broken bolts nightmare

wow<br /> your gonna have fun with a drill.<br /> best type to use are tyhe no slip shank bullet point bits from dewalt. none better.<br /> best not to attempt any more removals without oxy/acetelyne no other form of penetrant is better. PB blaster is ok on iron oxide its a teat on a boar hog with Aluminium oxide as its not designed to dissolve it.<br /> to remove the power head on those crusty old beasts I have found the best method is to scribe a vertical line parralell with the mounting bolts in a vertical orintation. then use a 3/8ths bullet point bit as cose to the power head as possible and cenerted on the bolt. hold the drill in a horiontal position and drill until you cut the bolt. if you mess up the powerhead adapter its just more broken bolts. but if your careful and pay attention the adapter does not mind some horizontal hloes. the bullet point bits wont walk and the cut is mostly flat. with a standard bit you have to go in almost 1/4 inch to cut the bolt. bullet points take less than an 8th. never ever ever, can I repeat ever use an easy out. if you break it off not only have you really really swelled the bolt in the hole, it was just tight before now its very tight, the only way to remove an easy out is with a welder. <br /> I have a buddy at S&R welding that has some speacial rod he uses that is designed for stud removal. the speacial flux fills the thread and then you cut off the rod and weld a flat washer and nut to the rod and back it out. sometimes we will use 10 nuts on one stud and remove it one thread at a time. with that may broken studs you will need a good drill, a good set of bits, dewalt bullit points with the no slip shank, and patience. were it me I would make a drill bushing guide so as not to have to free hand them all. I can do one or two my my artheritis doesnt like driling anymore. with my piteful home made drill guide I can drill them rascally Tstat housing bolts with the cover in place.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Yamaha 1991 broken bolts nightmare

oh<br /> the other thing. once the power head is off drive all the broken bolts UPWARDS as the holes are tapered and larger at the top than the bottom. a 5/16ths piece of bar stock works well.

 

[pine island fred]

Re: Yamaha 1991 broken bolts nightmare

Fuzzy memory. Are some machine shops equiped to lazer cut broken studs? Probably expensive if it does exist. Just something floating in the back of my mind. regards fred

 

[Fjbango]

Re: Yamaha 1991 broken bolts nightmare

Thanks for your lines Rodbolt, I was eager to hear from you!.<br />I like your procedure a lot. I had already some experience with the easy-outs and it is always bad. When a bolt is stucked so bad it break its head, it will break the easy-out 100% sure!.<br /><br />Now I am waiting for a local mechanic that will have a look at the battle field and provide some ideas and tools (I hope).<br /><br />I am sure I will need to sacrifice the "upper casing" and probably the "exhaust guide" as well (Parts #1 and #10 at http://parts.yamaha-motor.com/partimage.gifx?d=73043,2,0 ;can be seen better at http://www.yamaha-motor.com/outboard/parts/home.aspx then "outboard" then "1991" then "txrp" then going to the last tab on the left side and clicking "upper casing").<br /><br />My reasons are:<br />5 out of the 6 bolts (part # 9 above) are broken at the head. the whole shank of those 5 bolts (at least 4-1/2" long) is "cemmented-rusted-salted" inside these 2 parts #1 and #10. No easy-out will make them budge. no penetrating oil will "creep" that long run. No bit will make the 4-1/2 inch long cut straight enough. last and not least, I will not be able to pry-out the powerhead without destroying the whole engine block (which is exactly what I am trying to save).<br /><br />So, Rodbolt, here is my plan and I am asking for your blessing:<br /> <br />1- Instead of drilling a 3/8" hole perpendicular to the bolt shank and break it, cut open a vertical "groove" alongside the bolt on the "upper casing" (#1) to "expose" the first 1-3/16" of the bolt shank. leaving the rest 3-3/8" of the shank still "burried" in the "Manifold exhaust guide" (#10). This cut will render this part #1 useless ($279) but the #10 is still intact. Once this is done. I could have some "grip" on the bolt to heat, tap and oil it while I pray and try to remove them.<br /><br />IF this "1st step surgery" still do not work, the next thing to do are to cut simmilar grooves on the part # 10 ($239) which will expose the rest 3-3/8" of the shanks and the powerhead SHOULD (?) be totaly free and be lifted away.<br /><br />I know this may break the "guinnes book" for the most expensive water pump overhaul job in the world. But I don't see any other way out.<br />All this because I got some broken bolts on the cylinder head cover that can't be worked out unless the powerhead is removed.<br /><br />I would like to provide some pictures but they cant be posted here.<br /><br />PS. Check these "external" easy-out, they grab the bolt from the outside nor the inside like the regular ones. I have 2 sets and they work like a charm. no risk of dealing with a broken easy-out here! <br /> http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?BV_UseBVCookie=Yes&vertical=TOOL&pid=00952168000 <br /><br />Sorry for all the long posting<br />Thnaks <br />Frank

 

[Fjbango]

Re: Yamaha 1991 broken bolts nightmare

PErhaps a combination of both. the groove on the upper casing (it was pretty rusted even before this) AND the 3/8 hole close to the PH to break the bolt, then lift the PH.<br /><br />How close to the PH "bottom surface" could this 3/8" hole be? I guess I should not damage the flat mating surface between the PH and this other part no?<br /><br /> FRank

 

[andy6374]

Re: Yamaha 1991 broken bolts nightmare

rodbolt-<br />I searched oxy/acetelyne penetrant on google and all I can up with was a form of oxy/acetelyne welding. Where can you get the penetrant?