HPDI surging

Tedhealy

Recruit
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
Messages
5
I removed a pair of 92 Yamaha 200s and replaced them with a set of 01 HPDI 200s. After a few minutes of WOT on the test run the Stbd eng starts to drop down, and surge back up to speed. This happened several times. Each time it would go lower, behaving just like a fuel pump issue on a carb engine. I slowed both engines and brought them up to speed again. Each time I did this the interval to failure was reduced.<br />I then grabbed the primer bulb and began squeezing. The engine immediately responded and came up to speed. I see this engine has a pair of LP pumps to feed the VST. I then replaced both pumps and ran the boat again. It behaved exactly the same way. This boat has two seperate fuel systems (filters lines tanks) so I swapped lines and ran the boat again to no avail. I only had time to vacuum test the fuel system at the filter. There was less than 2 in. Hg drop. I did not have time to check it at the fuel pump, as it began raining. <br />Any light you could shed would be greatly appreciated
 

rodbolt

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Sep 1, 2003
Messages
20,066
Re: HPDI surging

well could be lots of things, bad fuel pump diaphrams come to mind as does the filter on the engine,the filter in the VST and the filter between the VST and the high pressure pump.<br /> the first place to start your fuel vacum test is at line betwen the engine filter and the pump. anything else is a splatter gun attempt.<br /> you can test the HP fuel pressure with a laptop or a DVM and the correct test harness, you need the EFI fuel test guage,availible at most auto stores, to test the medium pressure pumps or you can continue poking and hoping and hope it does not lean out and smoke a piston during testing.<br /> but if it picks up and runs when the primer is activated I would hunt for reasons you cannot get fuel to the VST.<br /> if you swapped the systems why did you retest a system that was known good on the other engine ?<br /> HPDI looks complicated but we actually have very few issues with the high tech part of it. most of it is fuel filters and fuel restrictions. occasionally in the rigging tube the fuel line gets collapsed.
 

Tedhealy

Recruit
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
Messages
5
Re: HPDI surging

Has anyone had an issue with the "Fuel Feed Assy"? It's a small check valve after the low press filter and before thelow press pumps. the salesman at the dealer said it can fail with those symptoms. It looks like a possible culprit to me
 

rodbolt

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Sep 1, 2003
Messages
20,066
Re: HPDI surging

cool<br /> the salesman knows all.<br /> post me a part number to this fuel feed assy. I have never heard of it but the list of things I have not seen increases daily.<br /> if the salesman is refering to the inline check valfe between the engine mounted filter and the low pressure pumps trhen he should be uptodate on the tech bulliten calling for its removal.<br /> gotta love them salesmen.<br /> thats why you always start your vacum test at the low pressure pump inlet.<br />tells you in one run if your fighting an air leak or a restriction and helps prevent continued testing and possible piston failure due to leanouts.<br /> call your salesman and discuss said tech bulliten.
 

Tedhealy

Recruit
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
Messages
5
Re: HPDI surging

I do believe we are speaking of the same component. The salesman only pointed out the fact that this component had a high failure rate. Is it possible for you to post the tech bulletin?<br />Thanks again for your help
 

bigbrownbuku

Master Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Sep 17, 2004
Messages
885
Re: HPDI surging

unless someone has it hosted i dont believe you can. it mainly deals with it being an uneccesary part that will add 1/2 inch of vacuum/cause unecessary problems to the fuel system. its safe to remove.<br /><br /> http://www.yamaha-motor.com/outboard/parts/home.aspx <br /><br />part# 25 on the fuel 1 page of the relevant parts manual.
 

rodbolt

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Sep 1, 2003
Messages
20,066
Re: HPDI surging

nope, I dont have it here. I have never seen one fail.<br /> I suspect its another salesman myth.<br /> but if you suspect it just remove it and either add a double ended hose barb or replace the section of fuel line from the engine filter to the pump intake.<br /> a quick run with a vacum guage attached at the pump intake will find air leaks or restrictions, the aniti siphon valve will drop 1"Hg or so and a good water seperator will drop 1/2"Hg or so and the total system vacum for that motor as measuered at the low pressure pump intake is 4"Hg, any more and its restricted. so we know that at or near WOT the system should have 1 and 1/2"Hg and less than 4"hg, less indicates an air leak and more indicates a restriction.<br />see how simple this is. one test confirmed or eliminated 2 possible causes.<br /> so lets look at the facts you have stated, and not knowing exactly where the fuel primer bulb is located its dicey.<br /> but so far the facts you stated, one engine surges and loses power,2 you can pump the primer and it runs normally.<br />from fact 1 and 2 I deduce the VST has no fuel to send to the HP pump thus a loss of fuel at the injectors which will set a code 25.<br /> so now I will look at the bulb itself, as you did NOT state the bulb was sucking flat I wont assume any restrictions down stream of the primer bulb.<br />means most likly the fuel system between the liquid level in the tank and the bulb is ok. now whats between the low pressure pump intake and the tank end of the primer bulb.<br /> thats where I would look.<br />its still possible that a partial restriction between the liquid level and the bulb exists but usually it makes pumping the bulb difficult and the bulb recovery very slow.<br /> sometimes its helpful,especially for the novice, to write down on paper what the symptom is, what helps or does not and what the system has to do then what its not doing.<br /> an example is on a C55 that was whopping me, someone else had replaced the flywheel,timer base assy and CDI with factory new stuff. the problem was with the trigger wire attached to the CDI as desined it created a no spark issue. I called my RTA looking for information on the trigger circuit function, next thing I know he was asking if I had sqirted premix down the carbs. I had to ask him why would I do that for a no spark condition?<br />the point is dont get so bogged down in details you forget what the low pressure side of the fuel system does.<br /> in other words the vapor seperator does not care how the fuel gets there as long as it does.<br />but as a maint item you may also wish to clean the VST filter and replace the medium pressure filter, DO NOT use a screw type clamp on the hose for the medium pressure filter.<br />as the hose expands and contracts with 50 PSI it tends to make the rack of the clamp eat into the hose and get loose. you really dont want it to pop off with 50PSI of pressure.
 

Tedhealy

Recruit
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
Messages
5
Re: HPDI surging

Just thought I'd pass this on. <br />I went to the Miami Boat Show over the weekend and spoke with a factory tech. He concluded it could very well be the "Fuel Feed Assy" (inline check valve between the LP filter and LP pump). I took the boat out this morning with a straight barb connector in place of the valve, and problem solved.
 

rodbolt

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Sep 1, 2003
Messages
20,066
Re: HPDI surging

hopefully you will have the valve tested as its normal system vacum drop is about 1/2"Hg. if its good you may have masked a pump or other restriction issue. thats why i like to test rather than swap or replace just cause.<br /> if one of your new pumps is bad, and yes it happens, and you masked the problem temporarily by removing a source of designed restriction what happens next ?<br /> thats why a quick fuel system test would isolate it, 6"Hg at the pump and 2"Hg between the valve and the filter would tell ya.<br />test takes 10 min and the cause is confidently and properly isolated and repaired.<br /> now we have to ask was the problem fixed or masked?<br />kinda like a buddy trying to sell his car, kept fouling #8, instead of fixing the oil control he installed a non-foul adapter. was his problem fixed or masked ?
 

Tedhealy

Recruit
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
Messages
5
Re: HPDI surging

I measured it before removing, it was 5" Hg.at the inlet side of the pump at idle and 1.5" Hg. after removal. I also like to know for sure.
 

rodbolt

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Sep 1, 2003
Messages
20,066
Re: HPDI surging

you most likly found it, 5"Hg at idle is a definate restriction. 1.5 is ok but recheck it at WOT, spec is 4"Hg or less at WOT .<br />1.5 is on the high side for idle speed.
 
Top