1972 Evinrude 65 hp Triumph; please help with carb rebuild questions

[*CatFisher*]

Hello everyone!

Thank you in advance for considering my questions! My future wife and I are very much new to boating. We had some experience with a 12 foot row boat last season, and recently we acquired an old MFG Gypsy that came with a 1972 Evinrude Triumph 65 hp outboard. The boat and motor are both in great shape for their age, with just a few issues to iron out. I have been posting on a smaller, local fishing/boating forum for help, but I'm finally posting here at iboats in the hopes of reaching a greater number of people who can help me. I'm sorry in advance if this post is long; any info or advice would be very much appreciated!

When I first got the boat, I had the motor looked over by a qualified marine mechanic who confirmed that the motor is in good condition, has great compression and strong spark, but seemed to be running on only two cylinders. He concluded that the lower carburetor and the fuel pump would need to be rebuilt. However, I found his labor cost of about $50/hour a little expensive for my slim budget. I decided I could save on the cost of the professional mechanic's labor and rebuild the carbs and fuel pump myself. So I ordered the Sierra brand rebuild kits (from iboats, of course!) for all three of the carbs and the fuel pump and I tried to go through everything with just the instructions included in the Sierra kits, and with the help of one more experienced user on the other boating forum. Simply put, I don't think I did the most complete job on the carbs and I'd like to try it again.

So here's where I am now: Since my first rebuild attempt I have been able to start the motor, however it seems to me like the motor is running on only the middle cylinder. I believe this to be true because it seems like that's the only low-speed needle that does anything when I turn it. The top and bottom don't seem to be affecting the rpm's of the motor when I try to adjust them. However, I do not have a tachometer, so I'm really just guessing. How can I find out what kind of tachometer would attach to my motor?

I have now ordered and received an original OMC repair manual for my motor, and having gone through the section on the fuel system, I definitely see a few "flaws" in my last attempt to redo the carbs. First, the last time through I neglected to remove the core plugs during disassembly hoping I could get away without removing them. I believe this was a serious oversight as the manual indicates that the plugs should be removed to clean out the low speed passage. So my first question is not how to remove the plug, which seems easy enough, but how do I reinstall the new one? The OMC manual calls for a "bead of Sealer 1000" to be applied to the plug. Where can I get this sealer, or is there some substitute I could find at a marine or auto parts store? Also, what can I use to reinstall the plug, a hammer and a wooden dowel, or is there something better to use?

In regards to the slow-speed needle assembly, when I last dissembled the carbs I couldn't figure out how to remove the old needle bearing. What is the best way to get the old bearing out, and the new one in place? Also, I had originally found it difficult to get the needle through the retainer, is this normal? And last, I assumed a new needle would be included in the rebuild kit, but it was not. The pointed, "business end" of my needles are actually in good shape, but the opposite end, the end you turn to tune the carb, are all mangled from prior abuse. I'd like to replace all the slow-speed needles, but can not find them. Can anyone tell me where I can order new needles from?

And finally for now, the leaf valves. The OMC manual suggests I remove the intake manifold and the leaf plate assembly. It says to "inspect the leaf pate assembly and disassemble if necessary. The valves must be free of all varnish and gum..." My question is, should I go ahead and pull the intake manifold, gaskets, leaf valves, etc? If so, how do I clean/degum the leaf valves without damaging them? And where can I get new gaskets for the intake manifold, etc?

I want to mention that this is a 1972 Evinrude Triumph 65 hp, model number 65272S. I have also replaced all the fuel lines on the motor, and I rebuilt the fuel pump, which I assume was successful. I suppose I won't know about the fuel pump until I get the motor under load in the water, but for now I am definitely getting gas to the carbs.

I believe these are my most pressing concerns. I'm sorry again if this is a long post, but I just want to make sure I do the job right this time. Any help, advice, info, or ideas would be very much appreciated!

Thank you in advance for your help!

-*CatFisher*

 

[AlTn]

Re: 1972 Evinrude 65 hp Triumph; please help with carb rebuild questions

marineengine.com or boats.net..for parts..leaf plate assembly...if you decide to inspect and clean you'll need new gaskets to reinstall...you can drill a small hole in the core plugs and pop'em out with an awl or small screwdriver...you can seal the edges with clear fingernail polish or I use blue loctite...seat the plugs with your wooden dowel, or I use a 3/8" rachet extension...you're just trying to expand it to seal the edges...the needle valve is difficult to thread through the retainer the first time..

 

[Joe Reeves]

Re: 1972 Evinrude 65 hp Triumph; please help with carb rebuild questions

I think that you are overly complicating the problem. Go at it one thing at a time, and don't be looking for problem that normally don't exist (Leaf valves) unless fuel is being blown out the carburetor throats. To start trouble shooting, purchase a cheap (yes, they're cheap) compression gauge, the type that has a rubber tip and you just force it into a spark plug hole. Then if you can't locate a reasonable spark tester, build the following.

(Spark Tester - Home Made)
(J. Reeves)

A spark tester can be made with a piece of 1x4 or 1x6, drive a few finishing nails through it, then bend the pointed ends at a right angle. You can then adjust the gap by simply twisting the nail(s). Solder a spark plug wire to one which you can connect to the spark plug boots, and a ground wire of some kind to the other to connect to the powerhead somewhere. Use small alligator clips on the other end of the wires to connect to ground and to the spark plug connector that exists inside of the rubber plug boot.

Using the above, one could easily build a spark tester whereas they could connect 2, 4, 6, or 8 cylinders all at one time. The ground nail being straight up, the others being bent, aimed at the ground nail. A typical 4 cylinder tester follows:


..........X1..........X2

.................X..(grd)

..........X3..........X4

Just saying that the compression is great as is the spark doesn't do it for us. We need to know what the readings are.

Remove the spark plugs and take a reading for compression on all cylinders which should be 100+ psi and fairly even on all cylinders. What readings do you get. Top cyl is #1, next down #2, bottom #3.

Spark plugs....... Should be Champion L77JC4 or QL77JC4 (Q= Suppressor Plug) plugs, gapped at .030. A few engines will run somewhat better on the surface gap L77V or UL77V plug but this plug really has no heat range and its use is rare (my opinion), but keep it in mind regardless.

Rig up the spark tester (plugs still removed), set the gap on the tester to 1/4" for your engine's ignition system. The spark should jump that gap with a strong blue lightning like flame.... a real SNAP! Does it? If not, describe what you're seeing on what cylinder(s).

Now, if the above compression and spark are as they should be, the problem you describe is usually related to fouled carburetors. Did you thoroughly and carefully clean the high speed jets that are located in the bottom center of the float chambers manually with a piece of single strand steel wire? If not, do so as solvent really doesn't do a proper job of cleaning those items by itself.

Replace the slow speed adjustable needle valves? Why would you want to do that? If the pointed end is still in good condition, they're as good as new. If they're scored bad, they can be dressed up if careful with a drill press, electric drill, and a good file.

The small (usually white or clear) nylon bearing that the front of the needle valve rides in..... that can be removed by hand with a small tap (I think 4/40). Screw it in carefully then simply pull it out. To install, simply place it on the end of the needle valve, then screw it in until it gently seats.

Adjust the carburetor as follows. Any other method usually results in problems.

(Carburetor Adjustment - Single S/S Adjustable Needle Valve)
(J. Reeves)

Initial setting is: Slow speed = seat gently, then open 1-1/2 turns.

Start engine and set the rpms to where it just stays running. In segments of 1/8 turns, start to turn the S/S needle valve in. Wait a few seconds for the engine to respond. As you turn the valve in, the rpms will increase. Lower the rpms again to where the engine will just stay running.

Eventually you'll hit the point where the engine wants to die out or it will spit back (sounds like a mild backfire). At that point, back out the valve 1/4 turn. Within that 1/4 turn, you'll find the smoothest slow speed setting.

Note 1: As a final double check setting of the slow speed valve(s), if the engine has more than one carburetor, do not attempt to gradually adjust all of the valves/carburetors at the same time. Do one at a time until you hit the above response (die out or spit back), then go on to the next valve/carburetor. It may be necessary to back out "all" of the slow speed adjustable needle valves 1/8 turn before doing this final adjustment due to the fact that one of the valves might be initially set ever so slightly lean.

Note 2: If the engine should be a three (3) cylinder engine with three (3) carburetors, start the adjustment sequence with the center carburetor.

When you have finished the above adjustment, you will have no reason to move them again unless the carburetor fouls/gums up from sitting, in which case you would be required to remove, clean, and rebuild the carburetor anyway.

 

[*CatFisher*]

Re: 1972 Evinrude 65 hp Triumph; please help with carb rebuild questions

marineengine.com or boats.net..for parts..leaf plate assembly...if you decide to inspect and clean you'll need new gaskets to reinstall...you can drill a small hole in the core plugs and pop'em out with an awl or small screwdriver...you can seal the edges with clear fingernail polish or I use blue loctite...seat the plugs with your wooden dowel, or I use a 3/8" rachet extension...you're just trying to expand it to seal the edges...the needle valve is difficult to thread through the retainer the first time..

Hello, AITn! Thank you for the info! I have been wondering if I can use loctite to seal the new core plug, so I think that's what I'll try.

Thank you so much for your help, I really appreciate it!

-*CatFisher*

 

[*CatFisher*]

Re: 1972 Evinrude 65 hp Triumph; please help with carb rebuild questions

I think that you are overly complicating the problem. Go at it one thing at a time, and don't be looking for problem that normally don't exist (Leaf valves) unless fuel is being blown out the carburetor throats. To start trouble shooting, purchase a cheap (yes, they're cheap) compression gauge, the type that has a rubber tip and you just force it into a spark plug hole. Then if you can't locate a reasonable spark tester, build the following.

(Spark Tester - Home Made)
(J. Reeves)

A spark tester can be made with a piece of 1x4 or 1x6, drive a few finishing nails through it, then bend the pointed ends at a right angle. You can then adjust the gap by simply twisting the nail(s). Solder a spark plug wire to one which you can connect to the spark plug boots, and a ground wire of some kind to the other to connect to the powerhead somewhere. Use small alligator clips on the other end of the wires to connect to ground and to the spark plug connector that exists inside of the rubber plug boot.

Using the above, one could easily build a spark tester whereas they could connect 2, 4, 6, or 8 cylinders all at one time. The ground nail being straight up, the others being bent, aimed at the ground nail. A typical 4 cylinder tester follows:


..........X1..........X2

.................X..(grd)

..........X3..........X4

Just saying that the compression is great as is the spark doesn't do it for us. We need to know what the readings are.

Remove the spark plugs and take a reading for compression on all cylinders which should be 100+ psi and fairly even on all cylinders. What readings do you get. Top cyl is #1, next down #2, bottom #3.

Spark plugs....... Should be Champion L77JC4 or QL77JC4 (Q= Suppressor Plug) plugs, gapped at .030. A few engine runs somewhat better on the surface gap L77V or UL77V plug but this plug really has no heat range and its use is rare (my opinion), but keep it in mind regardless.

Rig up the spark tester (plugs still removed), set the gap on the tester to 1/4" for your engine's ignition system. The spark should jump that gap with a strong blue lightning like flame.... a real SNAP! Does it? If not, describe what you're seeing on what cylinder(s).

Now, if the above compression and spark are as they should be, the problem you describe is usually related to fouled carburetors. Did you thoroughly and carefully clean the high speed jets that are located in the bottom center of the float chambers manually with a piece of single strand steel wire? If not, do so as solvent really doesn't do a proper job of cleaning those items by itself.

Replace the slow speed adjustable needle valves? Why would you want to do that? If the pointed end is still in good condition, they're as good as new. If they're scored bad, they can be dressed up if careful with a drill press, electric drill, and a good file.

The small (usually white or clear) nylon bearing that the front of the needle valve rides in..... that can be removed by hand with a small tap (I think 4/40). Screw it in carefully then simply pull it out. To install, simply place it on the end of the needle valve, then screw it in until it gently seats.

Adjust the carburetor as follows. Any other method usually results in problems.

(Carburetor Adjustment - Single S/S Adjustable Needle Valve)
(J. Reeves)

Initial setting is: Slow speed = seat gently, then open 1-1/2 turns.

Start engine and set the rpms to where it just stays running. In segments of 1/8 turns, start to turn the S/S needle valve in. Wait a few seconds for the engine to respond. As you turn the valve in, the rpms will increase. Lower the rpms again to where the engine will just stay running.

Eventually you'll hit the point where the engine wants to die out or it will spit back (sounds like a mild backfire). At that point, back out the valve 1/4 turn. Within that 1/4 turn, you'll find the smoothest slow speed setting.

Note 1: As a final double check setting of the slow speed valve(s), if the engine has more than one carburetor, do not attempt to gradually adjust all of the valves/carburetors at the same time. Do one at a time until you hit the above response (die out or spit back), then go on to the next valve/carburetor. It may be necessary to back out "all" of the slow speed adjustable needle valves 1/8 turn before doing this final adjustment due to the fact that one of the valves might be initially set ever so slightly lean.

Note 2: If the engine should be a three (3) cylinder engine with three (3) carburetors, start the adjustment sequence with the center carburetor.

When you have finished the above adjustment, you will have no reason to move them again unless the carburetor fouls/gums up from sitting, in which case you would be required to remove, clean, and rebuild the carburetor anyway.

Hello, Joe Reeves!

Thank you so much for the legthy and informative reply, I very much appreciate your time trying to help me! Let's see, first off I had the mtor looked at by a "real" marine mechanic before I bought it, and he determined the the compression and spark on the motor was fine. He felt the problem was related to the fuel system. Since I've had the motor I have performed my own copression test. My results were 120 psi in the top cylinder, 115 psi in the middle cylinder, and 118 psi in the lower cylinder.

Spark; I have personally checked the spark with one of those $3 lights that you place between the plug and the plug boot. I do indeed get a nice, bright spark on all three cylinders. I have not, howver, tried your spark tester. If you think I should, I can try to make a tester like you described and post my results. But I really think my problem is fuel related, wouldn't you thikn so?

As for the leaf valves, I don't want to remove them, and I don't suspect and problem with them, but I want to try to do a complete job, and I want to ensure that fuel is indeed getting to the cylinders.

Why do I want to replace the slow-speed needle valves? Because the end where you try to turn it to adjust it is almost completely worn away and difficult to turn with anything I have. I would have thought these would be cheap and easy, am I really wrong with about that? I can't find them anywhere.

The spark plugs I have actually look pretty good, but I have every intention of replacing them. The manual recommends the Champion L77JC4's, so that was my plan.

Oh, I also need the OMC 317002 tool to remove the high speed jet. I believe I have found a solution as per this thread:

http:
//forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=320380&page=1

What do you think so far? Should I bother with the leaf valves or new needles? Your help is greatly appreciated! Thanks again for your time!

-*CatFisher*

 

[beagleboy]

Re: 1972 Evinrude 65 hp Triumph; please help with carb rebuild questions

I punch in the welch plugs with an appropriate sized punch, or like you mention a wooden dowel. For sealing I use enamel paint (colour is your choice). Note paint goes on after the plug is punched in.

 

[Joe Reeves]

Re: 1972 Evinrude 65 hp Triumph; please help with carb rebuild questions

No need to quote lengthy replies, they're easy to backtrack if memory fails. I can't add to what I've already stated. Good luck with your decision.

 

[AlTn]

Re: 1972 Evinrude 65 hp Triumph; please help with carb rebuild questions

as stated...marineengine.com has the needles....boats.net probably does as well...the "flashing light" spark tester shows a spark present,, but not the quality of the spark....an open air spark gap tester from any auto parts place is a better choice...the diagram Joe provided will allow you to test all 3 at one time

 

[*CatFisher*]

Re: 1972 Evinrude 65 hp Triumph; please help with carb rebuild questions

No need to quote lengthy replies, they're easy to backtrack if memory fails. I can't add to what I've already stated. Good luck with your decision.

Well, thank you, I really appreciate the info from before!!

-*CatFisher*

 

[*CatFisher*]

Re: 1972 Evinrude 65 hp Triumph; please help with carb rebuild questions

I punch in the welch plugs with an appropriate sized punch, or like you mention a wooden dowel. For sealing I use enamel paint (colour is your choice). Note paint goes on after the plug is punched in.

Hello, beagleboy!

Thanks for the reply. As far as the sealer, I think I'm going to try the loctite. That's what I had been thinking myself, but it's great to know there's other options. Thank you again for your help!

-*CatFisher*

 

[*CatFisher*]

Re: 1972 Evinrude 65 hp Triumph; please help with carb rebuild questions

as stated...marineengine.com has the needles....boats.net probably does as well...the "flashing light" spark tester shows a spark present,, but not the quality of the spark....an open air spark gap tester from any auto parts place is a better choice...the diagram Joe provided will allow you to test all 3 at one time .

Ah, thank you so much, I was able to find the needle at marineengine.com. I'm sorry if you mentioned that in a previous post and I missed it. I think I'm going to opt for new needles just to be on the safe side.

I do understand everyone's concern about my motor having spark, but I really believe my problem is fuel system related. Please keep in mind I did pay a real mechanic $50/hour to go through the motor before I bought it, and his professional conclusion was that compression and spark were very good, but I needed at least one carb rebuilt. I opted to try and save the additional labor charge of $50/hour x 4 to 6 hours estimated and do the job myself. I have also opted to redo all three carbs at this time,. So for now I am concentrating on getting the carbs rebuilt correctly and reinstalled. Should I still have a problem after that I will certainly be looking at the ignition system more closely.

Thank you very much for your time helping with my questions, I very much appreciate it!

-*CatFisher*

 

[*CatFisher*]

Re: 1972 Evinrude 65 hp Triumph; please help with carb rebuild questions

Hello again everyone!

I just wanted to double check whether I should bother pulling the leaf valve assembly or not? I am not trying to make additional work for myself, or look for problems that do not exist, but the original OMC manual I have for my motor suggests that I should pull the leaf valves to inspect them. I have the carbs off now, does anyone think it's necessary to pull the manifold and leaf valves? Is this the kind of thing that can be "serviced" by running a can or two of SeaFoam through the system later? I'm just hoping to do the best, most complete, job I can.

Thanks again to everyone for considering my questions! I really appreciate the help!

-*CatFisher*

 

[beagleboy]

Re: 1972 Evinrude 65 hp Triumph; please help with carb rebuild questions

Hello, beagleboy!

Thanks for the reply. As far as the sealer, I think I'm going to try the loctite. That's what I had been thinking myself, but it's great to know there's other options. Thank you again for your help!

-*CatFisher*

The trouble with lock tite is that its anorobic meaning it hardens when removed from air. It will do the job but will take time to harden/dry.

 

[Randybeall]

Re: 1972 Evinrude 65 hp Triumph; please help with carb rebuild questions

As Joe stated, don't bother with it unless you have blow back problems with the carbs when running. Yes, Seafoam used regularly will clean and keep clean the reeds. You might want to use the fog cans, as in winterizing, for a quick clean up. Rare to have reed problems.
Randy

 

[Tim Frank]

Re: 1972 Evinrude 65 hp Triumph; please help with carb rebuild questions

Hello, beagleboy!

Thanks for the reply. As far as the sealer, I think I'm going to try the loctite. That's what I had been thinking myself, but it's great to know there's other options. Thank you again for your help!

-*CatFisher*

Nail polish is a good option for sealing welch plugs, as well.

 

[*CatFisher*]

Re: 1972 Evinrude 65 hp Triumph; please help with carb rebuild questions

Hello again everyone!

I'm sorry I've not replied sooner, but I've had some computer issues....

Let me first say THANK YOU to everyone for their help!! I very much appreciate all the great advice!!

OK, so back where we left off, I was concentrating on finishing up the carburetors, and I think I've done just that. This time through I removed and cleaned behind the core plugs. The only thing is I did go ahead and use blue loctite to seal the new plugs. Unfortunately, I had already completed two of the three carbs before reading beagleboy's caveat concerning the cure time of the loctite. I finished the third and final carb today, about how long should I wait before I can try to put the carbs in use? I'm hoping overnight to 24 hours does it, but I can wait longer if need be.

Also, following the advice of Joe Reeves, I was finally able to remove the slow-speed needle bearings. I had to try three stores, but I was able to locate a 4-40 tap, which seemed to do the trick. The bearing in the top and middle carburetors came out quite easily using the tap. However, the bearing in the lower carb took me much, much longer. I believe the bearing in the lower carb was perhaps mashed or seated wrong. It ended up coming out in pieces eventually. I can see now for sure that this bearing was certainly causing problems, and I really glad I took the time to remove it all.

So that's where I am right now. I've finished the carbs (I hope!) and reattached them to the motor. I was hoping to go through the manual and finish adjusting the throttle, choke, etc. tomorrow, and then try and give it a go. I'm hoping that's enough time to wait for the Loctite to dry, and assuming it is, I'll post again tomorrow with my results.

Thanks again for everyone's help, I would never have been able to get this far without it!!

-*CatFisher*