1980 Johnson 235HP w/Starting Issues

[dorelse]

Ok, I have a 1980 Johnson 235HP Powerhead on a Evinrude 175 leg. It came to me this way, and for the most part, runs great & starts great, with 1 exception.

For some reason, if its run, and I turn it off to anchor & float (for example) or for any extended period of time, it won't start again...

Its been recommended to me that it needs a tune up, including have the carbs sync'd & linked up, adjusted etc. I think that's probably good advice...has anyone else has experience with this?

Oh, and the weird part is, that when it does this...if I tip the motor all the way up in the trailer position...it starts. (Or like the video shows, I can use starter fluid too.)


Cold start - No problem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMaf2a0PqSI


45 minutes later:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENZfMtTvuW8


2 hours later:

Won't start...just fires once, starter disengages, and stops.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAXsnek60Gs

 

[tashasdaddy]

Re: 1980 Johnson 235HP w/Starting Issues

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=299680 read ethanol and carbs, also you need a water/fuel separating filter on that motor. also putting new gas on top of old gas, only makes more old gas.

 

[dorelse]

Re: 1980 Johnson 235HP w/Starting Issues

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=299680 read ethanol and carbs, also you need a water/fuel separating filter on that motor. also putting new gas on top of old gas, only makes more old gas.

No ethanol is in the tanks, one has 87 'regular', the other 92 as it was my only option. Both are mixed 80:1 Amsoil Sabre. I'll read the section, I'm guessing there's more that I need to know regardless of not having ethanol in it.

I agree that a water/fuel separator is needed, good suggestion that I need to get installed ASAP.

 

[dorelse]

Re: 1980 Johnson 235HP w/Starting Issues

Hmm...tashasdaddy - maybe you've led me to my answer!?!?

It would seem Johnson's don't like to start with a bunch of backpressure?

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=225510

#5 If you have electric trim, trim the motor up to eliminate excessive back-pressure during cold start. Do NOT tilt the motor up out of the water.​

I dunno, I'm coming from Force & some Mercury outboards, do I really have to have the motor nearly out of the water to start it cold? Seems odd, but they all have personalities...

 

[d.boat]

Re: 1980 Johnson 235HP w/Starting Issues

Hmm...tashasdaddy - maybe you've led me to my answer!?!?

It would seem Johnson's don't like to start with a bunch of backpressure?

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=225510

#5 If you have electric trim, trim the motor up to eliminate excessive back-pressure during cold start. Do NOT tilt the motor up out of the water.​

I dunno, I'm coming from Force & some Mercury outboards, do I really have to have the motor nearly out of the water to start it cold? Seems odd, but they all have personalities...

I used to have a 235 Frankenengine. It was totally remanufactured and had an '82 or '83 235 powerhead, some other sort of ignition system, a non-original leg, etc. It generally worked fine, but I had starting problems similar to what you're describing. I just had to figure out and remember the exact routine for starting it. It was very difficult for anyone else to get started.

Things that seemed to make a difference FOR ME (your mileage may vary).

Long priming: full 8 second count before firing. Not a count to 8, but a full 8 seconds.

Avoiding too much back pressure. I have a L/U jet w/ a hydraulic lift. If the motor was too far into the water, it really made it tough to start. If I got it up just so the intake was covered, it made a big difference. You would accomplish this with the trim/tilt. If it were my engine, I'd go beyond normal trim and actually tilt it up so it just was able to pick up water. Then I'd lower it as soon as it was running.

A "touch" with the key. This was actually very important. Like yours, mine would fire once, pop the starter out and then the starter would spin. I developed a knack of just touching the key to get that fire without causing the starter to release and spin. I could then pop the starter again more quickly and repeatedly - and that seemed to help a lot.

But basically, it just was not a sure starter and caused me a lot of grief.

I had a love hate relationship with that engine. When it finally quit (an ignition problem that was difficult enough so I just gave up and sold it as a project to a guy I knew) and I replaced it with an inexpensive, lightly used, but all original early 90s 200 hp, it's been great. This thing just starts up and runs perfectly (with the occasional minor issue).

 

[tashasdaddy]

Re: 1980 Johnson 235HP w/Starting Issues

unless you are buying $5.00 gallon Marina ethanol free fuel, your gas has ethanol in it.

after watching the third video you either have a weak battery, or failing battery cables, or failing starter. suggest you lube the bendix on the starter.

90% of starter problems are bad connections. remove and clean both ends of the battery cables, so that they are shiney, also the cable from the solenoid to starter. check for nicks in the cables. and make sure the connectors are on the wire good. the cable tend to corrode from the inside out, if nicked, corroded wires, and connections, heat up and cause resistance to the follow of electricity, thus the starter doesn't get enough. you can also take jumper cable pos battery post to large post on starter. with a good connection, the engine should spin. then if the starter is good clean everything and retest. then trouble shoot solenoid. starters can be rebuit at a starter/alternator shop, much cheaper than a new one.

Be sure the cables area connected to the correct battery post. crossing cables, usually blows the rectifier, and can blow more.

also have the battery load tested at the auto parts store, free, i've had new batteries go bad

 

[dorelse]

Re: 1980 Johnson 235HP w/Starting Issues

unless you are buying $5.00 gallon Marina ethanol free fuel, your gas has ethanol in it.

Well, that may be true where you live...but in IA, non-ethanol blended gas is available at almost every station. Pumps that have it are clearly labeled, and only the 89 grade octane typically has it. 87 & 92 are ethanol free.

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20100126/BUSINESS01/1260378/Industry-Make-all-gas-in-Iowa-contain-ethanol

Thanks for the help though, the starting issue isn't related to the batteries, they're just low from the day before, and wouldn't explain how tilting it way up allows it to start.

My theory is that I have a slow flooding condition. Regardless, its time to get it in for a tune up.

The fuel/water separator is a great 'must do' suggestion though, thanks again.

 

[emdsapmgr]

Re: 1980 Johnson 235HP w/Starting Issues

Have you ever pulled your spark plugs when having trouble starting? Are they wet or dry? Do you have fire on all 6 plugwires? An inductive timing light will easily show misfires or nofires.

 

[dorelse]

Re: 1980 Johnson 235HP w/Starting Issues

Have you ever pulled your spark plugs when having trouble starting? Are they wet or dry? Do you have fire on all 6 plugwires? An inductive timing light will easily show misfires or nofires.

Yes, engine was at a local marine shop as their lead tech wanted to see the boat it was on, as he remembered being on one as a kid. (1979 Glastron Carlson CVZ-19) He was kind enough to pull the plugs to see if the Amsoil Sabre mixed at 80:1 was doing its job. He said they looked good.

Its just weird that tilted way up, it starts, down no go...and only if its been sitting for a couple hours. I'm kind of stuck on the carbs slowly flooding.

 

[dorelse]

Re: 1980 Johnson 235HP w/Starting Issues

Well, I believe I have my starting issues all cleared up. I had a few things that needed attention...first, new plugs. A few of the old ones had rusty tips. I had 2 power packs with rusty grounds...cleaned them all up as well.

But..the biggest issue was a clogged upper fuel filter, right where it fed the second fuel filter. Once I cleaned that out, no more problems!

 

[emdsapmgr]

Re: 1980 Johnson 235HP w/Starting Issues

Hard to see from the picture-what size fuel hose are you using to feed that powerhead?

 

[dorelse]

Re: 1980 Johnson 235HP w/Starting Issues

Hard to see from the picture-what size fuel hose are you using to feed that powerhead?

I honestly don't know...only had the boat for 2 mos...is that labeled on the fuel line?

 

[dorelse]

Re: 1980 Johnson 235HP w/Starting Issues

Yep, found it...5/16" Fuel line...does that seem right? Engine seems to be getting enough fuel...

 

[emdsapmgr]

Re: 1980 Johnson 235HP w/Starting Issues

I thought that line looked a little small. All V6 engines need to have 3/8" line from the tank to the fuel pump. It is possible that the engine will run lean at high rpm's with that small hose. You need to feed it with lots of fuel. Your engine has a fuel hose connector on the lower cowling on the port side. I'd remove it and plumb your 3/8 line direct through that existing hole to the upper fuel pump hose barb. From your pictures, you may already have done that. Those hose connectors can leak fuel or air, possibly leaning out the fuel to the powerhead. Make sure you don't kink the fuel delivery hose under the cowling-sometimes it doesn't like to bend in sharp corners.

 

[dorelse]

Re: 1980 Johnson 235HP w/Starting Issues

Will do...I wanted to replace the lines anyway as there's extra spices between the tank and the powerhead.

 

[dorelse]

Re: 1980 Johnson 235HP w/Starting Issues

So, I've got 3/8" lines from the the tanks through the switch to the bulb. (I have dual permanent tanks.) Then from the bulb to the motor, its all 5/16". Replacing it now.

Thanks for asking me that...very good catch and I think it will help a lot. The motor has a quick disconnect mounted on the cowling and I'm going to remove that and, like you suggested, run the fuel line directly to the 1st fuel filter...seems like an easy way to eliminate a potential problem. I'll need to protect the fuel line as it passes through the cowling hole to keep it from rubbing, but that should be easy enough.

Thanks!

 

[dorelse]

Re: 1980 Johnson 235HP w/Starting Issues

Just an update, but I believe I have my issues resolved.

Clogged fuel filter, old primer bulb, rusty spark plug tips, corroded battery terminal, incorrect gas tank venting, incorrect fuel line size and an air leak that was allowing fuel to run back into the tank....coupled by the lack of proper venting to 1 of the tanks pulling gas away from the carbs.

All those resulted in a very cranky motor.

Seems to start up just fine, and my starter speed has picked up quite a bit with the clean terminals.

Thanks to those who helped & offered suggestions.