1991 70 HP rude high voltage and finder saga............

[joetheis]

Once upon a time, oh last fall I bought a '91 Grumman 18' fishing boat with a '91 "rude 70 outboard.
The summer of '15 comes, I take it up to the river (St. Lawrence), drop her in and start to hunt for fish.
After an hour or so, the Ray Marine Dragon Fly and the Lowrance 4 HDI would shut off????? I'd have to unhook the wires wait a few hours and plug them in, again, they work for a while then, shut off...........
WTF?
I checked connections, re do connections, send them back to the factory, all is good......................... (on the same circuit is the radios, they did NOT shut off, so no loss of power...................
One day I head out,, I left the launch area voltage was 14 plus, now it 17 and the unit shut off...
Ah! Voltage regulator gone bad...........
Go to the parts book I have........
This motor doesn't have one.......... only a rectifer (changes AC to DC), "OK, for sheets and giggles I swap that out for a new one.... same thing.
Come to find out on these "older" motors, they don't regulate the voltage.
Charges the battery and then sends the extra voltage out to??
The old fish finder (now on my trolling motor at the bow), AM/FM and marine radio can handle the extra, but my 2 NEW fish finders can't.......... (I know they are supposed to, but they do not, at least these 2 don't).
First fix was to install a battery, not hooked to the boat power, just for the finders, charge that at night.
That worked great for a month, (really, the finders draw next to nothing, I had both on for 16 hours as a test and all was well, still had 12 volts at the small jell battery deep cycle battery I got from a friend at the phone company).
I also have 2 solar panels and "voltage controllers" wired into the boat to keep the batteries topped when it's on the hard.
Hmmmm that "regulates" the power, (solar panels will put out 18 plus volts in the sun light)! I wonder IF that would work?
I bought a "voltage controller" from West Marine for like $15 and plug that into the ACC circuit where the finders used to plug in , (easier than trying to wire in a engine regulator, I think).
Now, when the outboard is running, the batteries are "topped" off, and the voltage creeps up, the extra voltage goes into the "controller" and out comes 14.3 steady volts to the 2 finders.
I must have 4-6 hours test time on it and all seems well.
Just thought I'd pass this on...........
Joe

 

[flyingscott]

What kind of battery a sealed maintenance free battery does not work well on unregulated systems they will cause the problems you are having. These systems use the battery as the regulator.

 

[WernerF]

There is a regulated rectifier fom CDI (193-3408) that you can replace your rectifier with.

 

[F_R]

Thanks for the information on the "controller". I'm not familiar with that but will check it out. Another solution you could have used is CDI now makes a regulated rectifier that fits in place of the standard rectifier. Iboats probably has them, if not, they should. That high voltage is a common problem. In my personal opinion, shame on anybody that makes accessories that can't stand over voltage. The large majority of outboards built since the late 1960's are unregulated and do it. Including mine.

 

[oldboat1]

May be relevant: I had a Humminbird Helix SI installed on my Trojan F26 this spring (dual batteries with switch). I was running the unit before turning on the engine, and the HB immediately shut down. After some research, I connected the fish finder directly to my auxiliary battery (both ground and pos wires, with an inline fuse on the positive side). The unit has worked fine all summer. (The switch was set to both batteries when I had the problem, and both charging from the alternator without issue.) I'm not sure whether my solution came from the HB helpline (doubtful) or another web source/forum (maybe something on iBoats, come to think of it.)

So suggesting the issue might be with the electronic unit(s) -- not that it's defective, just the nature of the digital beast.

 

[gm280]

This seem so odd that modern electronics can't handle such voltage swings. Most voltage regulator circuits I've worked with could handle voltage swing up to 37 volts or more without issues. Odd the circuits in those depth locators can't. It actually sounds like a built in problem to me. And knowing that those depth finders have to use regulated voltages internally, it would seem they would have installed regulators that would cover such extremes, unless they are wanting shop service money. :noidea: You can easily install a total whole house regulator setup for just the accessories. That way everything would be protected... Just an idea... :thumb:

 

[joetheis]

Thanks for the ideas!!
I'll look into the CDI regulator!
These batteries are not sealed, but "pop top" batteries. (Once I realized the voltage creep problem, I worried I boiled a battery, and I had a dry cell, and THAT was my problem, no place for the voltage to go, but thankfully, they were still filled).
I have a Battery switch I installed last winter, but, only switch on 1 battery at a time, alternating each time I go out, (I know, anal, but, it's must be the German AND maintenance guy in me)!!
I thought at first it was something to do with battery #2, (smaller CCA than #1), but then I had it on #1 and it happened, so........
Then I THOUGHT it was just the Dragon Fly, as that is the new finder, (I was livid when I call the company, but had to eat a large piece of humble pie when the Lowrance started to go "stupid").
Then I thought it was cuz the heat of the sun shining on the units behind the windshield, (black boxes, no air flow, by then I was grabbing at straws), so I put a 12 fan I had from my sailboat cabin blowing on them.
I had thought about wiring in a spot light to "draw" power, but, as soon as that idea left my mouth I realized, "that's a dumb idea, Joe.
I was a Chrysler, (car/truck dealership), tech for more than a few decades, and also did more than my share of building assorted things with engines at home, so spinning a wrench, engineering, "Hobbing" things are not out of my comfort zone.
I look at this CDI regulator, I'm trying to keep the outboard "modifications" down to just maintenance, as I've learned once to "change" things, it no longer becomes reliable!!
Joe

 

[oldboat1]

thought I would go out and check last night (also an excuse for a little cruise) -- DF works with no glitches with engine off, starting, and engine on. The battery switch was set to "both", as it was set last Spring when the unit shut down. I'm still not sure what to conclude, and not really sure why direct wiring worked in my case. In parallel, I think the batteries share the charge and the load(?) So direct wiring to the house battery with the switch on "both" should mean that the starter draw still is felt on the house battery -- but is no longer a problem for the DF, apparently.

Thinking back, it is possible that my batteries were not yet fully charged last Spring when the new DF failed, and the starter load was too much for the DF -- or maybe more to the point, the voltage suddenly dropped below a threshold and the DF shut down. Since then, the batteries have been charged and it's possible the DF would finally have worked with the old wiring setup too. I acted quickly because I thought I might damage the new DF if it was somehow shorting out. I'm not getting alternator interference with the new unit, unlike the old HB depth finder I replaced -- so that's good (not sure alt/charge interference would show up the same way in the new unit -- unit would probably just shut down like yours do).

A battery switch sounds like a good idea for your setup. You could isolate charge to the starting battery when running, while using electronics wired to the house battery -- if charging amt. is the issue in your case. And maybe running on "both" may moderate the charge enough to keep the DF happy regardless of how it's wired. Caveat in that case might be that the batteries need an equal charge to begin with. Would be curious.

guessing. don't like that.

 

[schematic]

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/DC-CC-280W-S...ower-module-/321576507977?hash=item4adf741a49

 

[joetheis]

I dunno why it's doing what it's doing.............
Maybe, it's a new stator and I'm getting max voltage????
I did order the CDI regulator/retifier, instructions are pretty much same as retifer, but it has no yellow/brown wire, just 2 yellow, red, black (grnd).
Stand by for that test........
Joe
A boat is a HOLE in the water, (mines on the trailer, so a hole in the trailer??), where you toss $$ into

 

[joetheis]

Up date on my Solar Charger fix..........
Crapped out ! The P.O.S!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I fired up the engine after a GOOD lenght of time using the trolling motor on a great day of fishing.
I fired the "70 'Rude up, went to go and poof!
Both finders go out..............
The solar charger sheet the bed.......
So maybe 6? hours of working time total and it crapped out, !

DON'T TRY THIS FIX!!!

I did replace my rectifer that night with a CDI regulator/rectifer that I had bought and was going to save for a winter project. Took like 5 min counting getting a beer, finding a screwdriver, (had to switch the yellow wires on first test, after my tach no worka, right, when I took off on a test run. Switched wired try it again. The the tack was still weird???
I shut the motor off, restarted it and now it's fine????????????????????
Hooked the finders back up to the small gel battery I had used before all this, (I had it still in the boat, as back up....)
I kept my eye on the voltage gauge all day, with the new CDI, never got much over 14 volts motoring to and from.
Me thinks I'll take the Solar Control apart to lookie see, keep the battery on the finders for the season end, keep a good eye on the voltage gauge, but looks like the CDI is the fix!
Joe
I don't give up on a problem, nor do I use band aide fixes!

 

[oldboat1]

Here's what you do: Buy another brand of beer. Make sure the beer is chilled to 42 degrees (I use an infrared temp gun to verify. Some guys go by hand feel.) Drink two of the chilled beers.

Wire one of the depth finders directly to one of the boat batteries, preferably a fully charged house battery. Wire both pos and ground wires directly. Turn on the DF. If operating properly, turn it off. Start engine. Turn on depth finder. If operating properly, turn it off. Turn engine off. Turn on depth finder. Start engine. If DF continues to work, drink third beer. Repeat with second depth finder. Drink fourth beer. Take nap.

If depth finders continue working, do not vary beer brand and temp.

 

[joetheis]

Always good? advice here!
A wise man once told me, "If your gonna drink all day, start early".
Joe