1992 Force 70HP - Water in lower unit.

[cmjust0]

I recently dragged my old boat out of the weeds after about 4 years of sitting.. I checked the impeller before I even tried to start her up out of fear that I'd grenade the impeller and end up with water jackets full of shredded impeller vanes.. When I checked the impeller, I had to break loose what appeared to be some permatex or silicone or something that was either "assisting" or replacing impeller gaskets.. I assumed at the time that it probably had no business being in there, and I had no choice but to disturb it, and I daggone sure wasn't going to *replace* it with more permatex without even knowing why it was there...so once the impeller checked out OK, I just put it back together.

I also changed the lower unit oil before I took her out.. Had plenty of oil, and it was only slightly milky.. Was in pretty good shape, actually.

I put her in the water three times since then and checked the oil in the gearcase last time it came out of the water, "just in case" something was leaking. Well, it gushed water.. There was still oil in it and it still shifts and the prop turns freely in neutral and everything like that, so I don't think it's hurt too bad...but it's obviously got a problem.

My first question is: Can disturbing impeller gaskets cause water to get in the lower unit?

If so, I'll just do a water pump with all those gaskets and try it out again.. If not, I'll do that *and* pay someone about $200 (plus a seal kit) to replace all the seals in the lower unit....but I really don't wanna do that if I don't have to.

What do you guys think?

 

[roscoe]

Re: 1992 Force 70HP - Water in lower unit.

Water pump can't leak into the lower unit directly.

When you changed the lube, did you put new gaskets on the drain and vent screws?

If not, change the lube again and use new gaskets on the screws. Run it a few times and see if you get more water.

If so, then replace the seals.

You can do the driveshaft seal and the shift shaft seal pretty easily.
Might want to do them and trey it again.

The prop shaft seal is a bit more work.

 

[bentle]

Re: 1992 Force 70HP - Water in lower unit.

The prop. drive shaft seal may be leaking as well.

 

[cmjust0]

Re: 1992 Force 70HP - Water in lower unit.

Water pump can't leak into the lower unit directly.

Yeah, I was afraid someone was going to say that..

I didn't replace the drain/vent screw gaskets, and I know the drain screw gasket is pretty much shot.. And by shot, I mean I'm fairly certain it would disintegrate if I rubbed it between my fingers.. But it's there, and it gets compressed when I tighten the screw.. I would definitely suspect the drain gasket if it were just a matter of the oil being a milky, but would a bad drain gasket be capable of letting about half the volume of the gearcase become filled with straight-up water? That's not rhetorical, either -- I'm really asking, because I really don't have a clue if that's a possibility or not...lol

I've also been advised to pull the prop and check for monofilament around the prop shaft.. Does that sound like a good idea?

 

[roscoe]

Re: 1992 Force 70HP - Water in lower unit.

Fish line may be a problem, but probably not your problem.

Seals likely need replacing, but you might get lucky with just the gaskets.

At the least you could try it, and put the reseal job off for a month or two.

 

[cmjust0]

Re: 1992 Force 70HP - Water in lower unit.

Ok, so I've located a NIB drain plug and gaskets locally for about $5, so I'll replace that and probably try it out again.. My only concern is that if it turns out that's not the problem and I end up with a gearcase full of "gear-oil & lakewater vinaigrette" again, am I basically killing my lower unit?? What I mean is...am I playing with fire by taking the trial/error route here, or is a lower unit kinda made to tolerate stuff like this *occasionally* happening? Obviously I know something's up and I'll check it out immediately when it comes out of the water, so I'm not going to leave it parked with water in it or run it for the rest of the season before checking again, but...well, you guys know what I mean, I'm sure..

 

[zebbmann]

Re: 1992 Force 70HP - Water in lower unit.

reseal it and be done. no worries that way. kit is cheap and repair is rather simple. shift and drive shaft seals are about as easy as it gets. i was also hesitant to do mine but with help here it was done in half hour. prop seals take some finesse and elbow grease but very doable. as recommended do the shift, driveshaft and vent and drain plugs and try it. mine was doing exactly as yours is and once those were changed all was fine. i did the prop seals just cause i had them...

 

[cmjust0]

Re: 1992 Force 70HP - Water in lower unit.

I called around a little bit to get prices on doing the seal job.. I can get the kit off this website (iboats.com) for $39, and found a dealer w/ service shop that'll do it for $120-$160.. He said "$160 at the most" -- direct quote -- because it's a 1.5-2hr job, and they charge $80/hr. That's if I take the L/U off and bring it in, which is no big deal to do.. He told me straight up that what they'd do is replace 2 seals -- the driveshaft seal, and the prop seal -- and that the rest of the seal kit wouldn't be used, as it's pretty much overkill.. Which is fine by me if it works, frankly..

He also told me that he'd definitely try the drain plug first because a shot gasket could absolutely let that much water in -- even if it's still technically "there".. When I asked if I was playing russian roulette with my gearcase by trying things out, he said no, and that the biggest issue with water in a gearcase was wintertime freezing/busting issues. Overall, he was super helpful and if it ends up that it definitely needs seals, I now know where I'll be taking it.

Also, since the gearcase seals may simply be the victim of just sitting around and drying out, I'm also going to try adding some power steering or ATF stop leak to it -- something iwth 'seal conditioners' -- to see if that'll help. My working plan at the moment is to pull the bad plug and let it drain just a bit, then top it back up with lucas PS stop leak, put the *bad plug/gasket* back in, run it on a hose just enough to get it warm and mix the oil/stop leak up really good, then let it sit for several days to perhaps a week with the stop leak in it.. Then drop the bad drain plug and drain it, replace with regular ol' pennzoil gear oil, and put the new plug and a new plug gasket in. Then try it on the water..

If it comes back full of water again...well, then I'm off to the shop for new seals. If it comes back only a little milky or better, drain and refill with lucas marine gear oil (which has seal conditioners in it already! lol) and yet another new plug gasket...and call it good for the season.

I know not everybody's going to agree with the stop leak, but...well...it went from being fine to serious intrusion and the only thing that happened in between was storage.. Having said that, it really kinda makes sense to me that the rubber seals may have just dried up and just need to swell a little bit..

So...what do you guys think of the working strategy? Good? Bad? OMGAH don't do that? lol

And thanks again for all the help so far!

 

[roscoe]

Re: 1992 Force 70HP - Water in lower unit.

Go for it.

Really no risk to trying it.

The marine lube has enough protection in it to take care of your gears, as long as you aren't running in salt.

Sounds like your mechanic is being honest with you, except for the price.

And have him replace the shift shaft seal too.

 

[cmjust0]

Re: 1992 Force 70HP - Water in lower unit.

Thanks, roscoe. I'm not running in salt, so I should be OK.. And the lake I'll test it out in is only like 300 acres and the fishing's too good to just run all day anyway.. My trolling motor sees *a lot* more hours than the ol' Force....lol!

I'll definitely remember to ask that the shift shaft seal be changed as well.. As for the price, do you think that's too high? I mean, I realize they're probably not going to *actually* spend 1.5-2hrs on it, but $120-$160 is the cheapest I've found so far. Another guy quoted it as a 2.5hr job despite the fact that I told him I was just gonna bring him the L/U already detached, and yet another guy said "about $200", then said "well, $150 to $200." I think the fact that there isn't much navigable water very close to where I'm at and, as such, not a whole lot of boats and, as such, not a whole lot of outboard mechanics is probably having an impact on labor pricing..

There's not a lot of competition, in other words.

So even at $120 to $160, reckon should I keep looking?

 

[zebbmann]

Re: 1992 Force 70HP - Water in lower unit.

why bother. its a patch not a fix. buy the kit and change them...youll be sorry you paid a mechanic. its honestly a half hour job

 

[roscoe]

Re: 1992 Force 70HP - Water in lower unit.

price is about right for a full service shop.

Its a bit steep if the guy is working out of his garage.

 

[Jack Daniels]

Re: 1992 Force 70HP - Water in lower unit.

How hard is it to change the shift seal? is there an easy way to get the prop shaft seal out that doesn't require tons of elbow grease?

 

[roscoe]

Re: 1992 Force 70HP - Water in lower unit.

Something like a darning needle, or a hook-rug hooker can help. Poke it thru and get hooked behind it. pull

 

[cmjust0]

Re: 1992 Force 70HP - Water in lower unit.

why bother. its a patch not a fix. buy the kit and change them...youll be sorry you paid a mechanic. its honestly a half hour job

Can you elaborate on that a bit? Not sure what you mean by "why bother"...I'm bothering because I had water gush out of my lower unit, so I'm assuming you mean something else here.. lol

Also, are you saying the nature of the job itself is that it's a patch and not really a fix (i.e., not that big a deal), or are you saying that what the mechanic was gonna do (i.e., change the driveshaft & prop shaft seals) isn't really a "fix" but just a patch (as in, a band-aid...temporary fix..?), and that I'll be sorry for some reason later on down the road? Like, that he's about to do an incomplete job that'll fail quickly down the road?

And as for it being a half-hour job...does that apply even to someone like myself who's not that mechanically inclined, or is it really *just that easy* that it doesn't warrant a trip to the shop?

Bear in mind that I pay to have my oil changed...lol It's not that I can't do it, because I have.. I've done oil changes, and brakes/rotors, and a couple other things in the past and my experience has always been that if someone had offered *me* the money I'd just saved to do the same job on their vehicle, I'd say "TAKE A HIKE!"...lol! It's almost never worth it.. Not in my experience so far, anyway..

The only thing I can think of that's really been worth it every time is plugging tires.. I can do that for $1.00 because most shops won't, but will instead dismount the tire and do an inside patch...for considerably more than $1. If that's the kind of easy we're talking about here, well...keep talking! I'm listening! lol

I really do appreciate everyone's advice so far, btw..

 

[cmjust0]

Re: 1992 Force 70HP - Water in lower unit.

price is about right for a full service shop.

Its a bit steep if the guy is working out of his garage.

Ironically, the $120-$160 mechanic was at a boat dealership.. The 2.5hr guy (which totalled $212.50, btw) has his own shop at his house that's literally in the middle of nowhere.. He happens to be convenient *to me* because I live out in the sticks near him, but I'm talking this guy's like 2 doors down from where the world ends...lol And the "$150-$200" guy is almost 3hrs away, near where my dad lives. He's got a little shop at his house, too. And there are more boats where he's at..

Didn't make any sense to me either, which is why I called the dealership *last*.. I fully expected them to be rude and short with me, and to come back at a minimum of $300, so imagine my surprise when one of the actual mechanics took the time to have a conversation with me and said $160 "at the most."

 

[zebbmann]

Re: 1992 Force 70HP - Water in lower unit.

stop leak is a temp fix and is just more money spent. if your not comfortable doing it then take it in. i didnt have a clue and the people here, some of which have responded to this thread walked me through it and it was dont in no time. your going to pull the lower anyway so why not take a look and see. my initial problem was the shift shaft seal leaking. once i had the part it was a 10 minute job. the drive shaft seals were my major problem as far as the water was concerned. the only tools you need are a screwdriver and gasket sealant. this one took less than 10 minutes. i would stop there and try it. prop seals took some force to get out but once out they were simple to replace. my prop seals were 15 years old and were still fine but i changed them anyway...if a mechanic tells you its a 2 hour job i dont believe it. i didnt have the proper tools nor the know how and i had it done in less than an hour start to finish. yes, i timed it..im not an outboard mechanic nor very mechanically inclined. i probably shouldnt even be responding to this cause im not a pro. just thought id throw my 2 cents in and let you know how simple some of these things actually are...

 

[cmjust0]

Re: 1992 Force 70HP - Water in lower unit.

stop leak is a temp fix and is just more money spent. if your not comfortable doing it then take it in. i didnt have a clue and the people here, some of which have responded to this thread walked me through it and it was dont in no time. your going to pull the lower anyway so why not take a look and see. my initial problem was the shift shaft seal leaking. once i had the part it was a 10 minute job. the drive shaft seals were my major problem as far as the water was concerned. the only tools you need are a screwdriver and gasket sealant. this one took less than 10 minutes. i would stop there and try it. prop seals took some force to get out but once out they were simple to replace. my prop seals were 15 years old and were still fine but i changed them anyway...if a mechanic tells you its a 2 hour job i dont believe it. i didnt have the proper tools nor the know how and i had it done in less than an hour start to finish. yes, i timed it..im not an outboard mechanic nor very mechanically inclined. i probably shouldnt even be responding to this cause im not a pro. just thought id throw my 2 cents in and let you know how simple some of these things actually are...

I appreciate it, zebb..

The stop leak may be a temporary fix and more money spent, but it was only $5 to try and if it just so happens to keep me on the water until the end of the season, I'd actually be more inclined to give the seals a shot myself if it was already time to winterize anyway.. That way I can take my time with it and if I screw it up, I'm not really missing any fishing time and I can take it to the shop anytime before April or so.. And even more importantly, I can take it whenever it most suits my wallet!

BTW...I did pull the prop this weekend to check for monofilament - no dice. I even got brave enough to take the two bolts loose that hold the flange thingy (..lol..I dunno what it's called) off the lower unit behind the prop and see if maybe that yielded any insight into what I was dealing with.. The two bolts came out, but the flange thing wouldn't budge. I think it's just painted on, but I took that as a sign that I probably shouldn't be messing with it -- at least not at that particular moment -- so I put the bolts back. Maybe another day.

Oh, and the stop leak has been in since Friday night. I haven't had it on the water, but I did engage it on the hose just to stir it up good with the gear oil.. I had it on the hose for a decarboning, which was fun...lol I dropped the plug again just to check and didn't see any water, and that was with it on the hose.. I figure that's probably a good thing, though probably not diagnostic at all.. But hey, it could have been full of water from the hose which *would* have been diagnostic -- in a really bad way! lol

A little off topic here, but when decarboning, I sprayed about 2/3rds of a can of deep creep directly into the carb in an effort to choke it out but she just...would...not...die. She just got down and grunted right through it and stayed running the whole time. I eventually just shut it down and pulled the plugs and sprayed the cylinders and all that, too.. Exhaust water was black for a while, but I ran enough of that stuff through it that the water was eventually coming out clean aside from honey-colored droplets of deep creep.. Dunno if it gets much better than that, frankly..

Folks can say what they want about Force motors, but all I know is that mine -- and my dad's too, for that matter -- are both freaks of nature when it comes to being dependable. Both of ours are **really, really good motors**.