1997 Force 120 - Multiple Problems

Gone4two

Cadet
Joined
Sep 9, 2010
Messages
13
I need some help!!! I know this has happened to fellow Force owners! O'K I will keep this short, sweet, and detailed. Recently purchase a pontoon with force 120 propulsion (live in Florida). Ran great at purchase. Ran great on maiden voyage. 2nd time out I notice rough Idle, and bogged down once at WOT. 3rd day out really rough idle, almost impossible to maneuver at low speeds. Had to put into neutral, rev it up, and then quick shift into gear. One time when quick shifting into gear, it died & got stuck in reverse (would not move at gear shifter). I had to raise tilt, and manually (with effort) turn the prop, it popped and I was able to shift normally (forward, neutral, reverse). I pulled the plugs, and cleaned them off. It ran a little better, but still could not do low speeds (constantly died at idle -real annoying). Finally got to the boat ramp & pulled it out of the water. I talked to fellow boat owners who had multiple ideas. As a result I did the following: Replaced the plugs, conducted compression check (readings as follows: 165, 170, 180, 170), added a fuel/water separator (the boat did not have one), replaced primer bulb, and hose, replaced fuel filter (with new aftermarket see through glass type), replaced lower unit gear oil, added quick silver quickleen, and adjusted idle screw (1/2 turn clockwise). After all this, I fired it up in the driveway (with water bridal of course), and she purred like a kitten, great idle (1000 rpms), and great response. I noticed gas dripping from the top carb onto the bottom carb, but it was mainly at idle. I also notice a rattling sound (sort of like tumbling marbles) while in neutral, but went away when placed in gear. I took it out yesterday, and this is how it went: Dropped her in the water, fired up with no problem, tooled out past the low speed marker, and opened up the throttle. It jumped right out of the water - very strong with quick plane. Got up to about 5000 rpm, and she bogged down, I backed off, and she idled great. Hit the throttle again, and she bogged down again. I limped over to a buddy's dock nearby, and sat there and thought about it. I came to the conclusion that she was starving for fuel. I checked the primer bulb and it was soft, then I took the newly added fuel/water out of the loop. I moved away from the dock and tried it again. Same thing (bogged down) plus poor idle. Went back to dock and pulled the cover, and she perked right up. I decided to take her out while the cover was off. She ran fine, but noticed gas dripping from top carb. I put the cover back on, and she ran like crap. Took cover back off and she ran fine again. I had my wife steer, so I could watch the motor. I told her to increase speed, and noticed that as she increased speed the amount of fuel in the see through filter decreased, and finally dissapeared, resulting in bogging down. As speed was decreased, the fuel in filter increased. The fuel in the filter would stay stable around 2000 rpms. This makes me to believe that it is a fuel delivery issue. I have the following concerns: 1) Can I have a fuel/water separator & filter at the same time? 2) Could the aftermarket fuel filter have too much resistance? 3) Could the fuel pump diaphragm, or pump itself be going bad? 4) When you adjust the idle screw, should you adjust the shift linkage as well? if so, how do you adjust shift linkage? 5) Is the tumbling marble sound in the gearing, or is it shift linkage adjustment? 6) Could the poor performance with the cover on, be the result of gases building up from the leak causing improper fuel to air mixture? 7) Do I need to rebuild to carburetors? 8) Do I need to bite the bullet and pay the big bucks for marine mechanic? I am very mechanically inclined, and I do not mind tinkering, but time is an issue with me! Any input to this post would be greatly appeciated! I have ready quite a few posts that are somewhat relative, but not quite the same. Please help!!!!!!

Thanks,

Gone4two
 

pnwboat

Rear Admiral
Joined
Oct 8, 2007
Messages
4,251
Re: 1997 Force 120 - Multiple Problems

1) Can I have a fuel/water separator & filter at the same time?
This should not cause any problems if everything is functioning normally. I've had this setup on my 125 HP for 3 years now with no problems. I know of many others that have used the same set up without any issues.

2) Could the aftermarket fuel filter have too much resistance?
Only if it's plugged up. It should be fine. It should be installed between the fuel pump outlet and the carburetors.

3) Could the fuel pump diaphragm, or pump itself be going bad?
The symptoms you are describing can be indicative of a bad fuel pimp diaphragm, however, you mentioned that gas was leaking from the top carb. This is definitely a problem. Needle valve in that carb is bad or float level is set too high.

4) When you adjust the idle screw, should you adjust the shift linkage as well? if so, how do you adjust shift linkage?
You don't typically have to adjust the shift linkage after adjusting the idle screw.

5) Is the tumbling marble sound in the gearing, or is it shift linkage adjustment?
Most likely the shift linkage adjustment, or cable is binding.

6) Could the poor performance with the cover on, be the result of gases building up from the leak causing improper fuel to air mixture?
Could be idle mixture or the exhaust is leaking inside the cowl and getting sucked into the carbs choking out the motor. Idle screws should be set approximately 1 1/4 out from lightly seated. Final adjustment is varies from motor to motor, but this setting will get you in the ball park.

7) Do I need to rebuild to carburetors?
If the carbs are leaking, they probably need new needle valves and or float height adjustment. Rebuild would be a good idea.

8) Do I need to bite the bullet and pay the big bucks for marine mechanic?
Definitely not!!! All of your issues can be fixed if you have some basic mechanical experience. You should get a service manual if you don't already have one.
 

Gone4two

Cadet
Joined
Sep 9, 2010
Messages
13
Re: 1997 Force 120 - Multiple Problems

Great! thanks for the reply. Latest - I pulled the carb bowls found a little crud (solids), and cleaned. Pulled fuel lines fairly clean. Pulled pick-up tube from tank - screen was clean. Looked at the internals of the fuel pump - looks good, no evidence of breach in diaphragm - clean as a whistle. Cranked it up! sounds great in driveway! Top carb is still leaking!
 

roscoe

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
21,753
Re: 1997 Force 120 - Multiple Problems

7) Do I need to rebuild to carburetors?
If the carbs are leaking, they probably need new needle valves and or float height adjustment. Rebuild would be a good idea.

Rebuild the carbs.


WHile you have them off, examine the reeds, may be reason for spitting.
 

Gone4two

Cadet
Joined
Sep 9, 2010
Messages
13
Re: 1997 Force 120 - Multiple Problems

OK' The latest - Back to the drawing board & very frustrated! This what I have done: Rebuilt Carbs, Rebuilt Fuel Pump, Replaced plugs, Repaced all fuel lines, Cleaned fuel pick-up tube, Replaced fuel/water separator, adjusted idle, and put in Quicklean. Had the thing purring beside the house, but I could not stop the top carb from leaking (spraying out the front, and squirting out of the over-flow). Decided to take it out and run the quicklean treated fuel through it. Backed it in the water, and wouldn't you know it - would not run at in gear idle. I worked through it and got it past the slow speed marker. I pushed the throttle, it hesitated for a few seconds, and then all of a sudden it jumped out of the water. Running at 6300 RPMs WOT (Previously would only do 5300 RPMs WOT). Ran it fo about 20 miles - no problems except no idle speed in gear. Tied up to a few buds, and sat for a while. When it was time to leave, I started with no problem, put it in reverse, and she died. tried to shift back to nuetral but it was stuck in gear. Raised the motor and turned the prop by hand and freed it. Took the boat to a buds dock, but it would only do 5300 RPMS (where do the extra 1000 I had earlier go???). Tied it up and left for home. Came back a few days later to tinker with it. This is where the probs begin. Took a while, but she finally started up. running like *&#t. Took off the cover, cleaned plugs, did some adjustments. Put it in gear (while tied to dock), and the best I could do is 1200 RPMs while in forward idle, any thing less would cause it to die. All the while, fuel, and slight smoke is spraying out of the front of the top carb. When shifting from forward to nuetral the idle would go up to 2200 RPM. I decided to take her out for a run, but after untying, I put it in reverse & nothing was there! Somehow I have lost reverse???? When I move the throttle/shifter to reverse, I get nothing but reving of the motor. Additionally, I discovered that when I put the cover back on, runs like crap, when I take it back off, it perks up (but still high idle). Not sure where to go at this point. Frustration level is way too high. I may bite the bullet and pay the big bucks to a mechanic!! Any comments or advice from the experts would be much appeciated. BTW I am an old time car mechanic, so I have some skills. But when it comes to outboards, I am a novice.

Thanks for the time

Gone4two
 

Gone4two

Cadet
Joined
Sep 9, 2010
Messages
13
Re: 1997 Force 120 - Multiple Problems

Another update! Corrected all the problems. Frustration was so bad, I was one click away from buying a four stroke, but thought better of it (Almost a $7K mistake). I heard the rocky music in my head, and set aside a couple days to study & fix no matter what. First I pulled the carbs apart again & replaced floats. Pulled shifter cable & I was able to shift through all gears by hand, so I adjusted the cable so that it would go all the way into reverse. Worked like charm. I'm thinking wow that was easy! Put it back together and fired it up- Shifting fine and running great. Ran for few minutes & noticed small drip from upper carb again. Took to the ramp and launched. Hard to start but it did, threw it in reverse - No reverse!!!!! Took it out any way. Ran great at WOT - Again - Died at idle - Again. Spaying fuel 7 smoke out of carb - again. Took to buddies dock and parked it Tried to start later - and it would not - Again. Charged battery, finally started and limped it back to ramp & pulled it out. Brought it home - Let the fun begin. Tore into it! Close inspection revealed the following: Reed valves on 1 & 2 were gone. Shifter paw in the gear case was shattered, clutch dogs were rounded.

I contacted a local small shop that specialized in hard to find parts (i.e. force outboards). He happen to have everything I needed (forward & reverse gears, pinion gear, shift paw, reed blocks, and all seals and gaskets). Took me a day for inspection and disassembly, and a day to put it all back together. Sheww glad thats done. Fire it up on first turn of key. Ran for while - no drips - shifting great. Took it o ramp launched, threw it in reverse - no problem. Took it out great WOT, great idle. Problem solved.

What caused the shifter paw to shatter?? Don't know! Maybe high idle & shifting into gear at high idle? Really not sure. I do have one concern though! I posted the compression readings earlier. Now the compression is 150, 170, 170, 170. I think that the reeds may have caused some damage to # 1, as I had 165psi a few weeks ago. Engine seems to be running fine though! May have to take a look for scarring in the near future! But I don't have a lot of good boating weather ahead! If you have been following this thread, then you saw a key issue that may healp others. The key on the carb was the fuel & smoke spraying out! Great indication of bad reed!

Thanks for the time

Gone4two
 

jerryjerry05

Supreme Mariner
Joined
May 7, 2008
Messages
18,073
Re: 1997 Force 120 - Multiple Problems

If the reeds were broken.The pieces had to go somewhere.
Start looking.Remove the plate again and get a magnet.
The broken pawl is probably from getting stuck in gear and trying to force it out.
Floriada,you can boat all year.Flounder is starting to show up.J
 
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