2006 F115 low (no) voltage after running a while

[hawilson2]

2006 f115 (68v-L-1055558). Been laying up on charger for 8 months during duck season. Did annual maintenance and drained fuel tank. On first trip out all seemed fine while running. After running about 20 minutes noticed alternator voltage was at 11.8V (normally 14.x V at high rpm's). Switched batteries and on restart same thing while running. Both batteries should be good. 1 a year old and the other 3 years old but runs trolling motor fine. Came home and cleaned all electrical connections and grounds on batteries, battery switch, and engine. Sealed with corrosion block. Tested at home while running on hose and getting 13.v-14.x V. Ran for 15 minutes and same result. Thought all was good. Took out on trip and after 15-20 minutes of high rpm running same thing. Motor never stumbled or gave me any trouble except for low voltage reading ( it was throwing "low voltage alarm" via NMEA 2000 gauge hooked up). Figured time for some elec testing. Unhooked lighting coil plug from rectifier/reg and the plastic internals of the plug on the lighting coil fell apart. See attached pics. resistance tested all 3 green (white) leads from lighting coil to themselves and all showed resistance of .8 ohm. Also checked ground of lighting coil green wires to ground and there was no short to gound. Manual says I need to really check lighting coil and rectifier/reg with special adapter while running and with a DVA neither of which I have. Plan on buying a new reg/rectifier (~$105.00) to start though I hate throwing parts at things. Will a bad reg/rect go out once heated and then return to normal once cooled down? Always in driveway on hose voltage is good, even now. Should I have to buy a new lighting coil (~$450.00) for the new plug internals. It seems to test out fine although I cannot do a running test. If I buy a new rec/reg and install it and the lighting coil is bad can it blow that new rec/reg as well. Help!!!!! Ideas??

Sorry for the length but trying to include as much info as possible from the start.

 

[KJINTF]

Re: 2006 F115 low (no) voltage after running a while

As I said on the other thread - hope this helps

Those Rectifier/Regulator assemblies are not very robust, actually they are very fragile. Poor / loose battery connections will take them out very quickly.

Check the wiring harness ends that connect to the R/R - Yamaha does not sell the connector ends (You can get them on line). Yamaha will sell you the entire wiring harness priced @ SEVERAL hundred dollars.

Replaced my R/R due to excessive voltage - the new unit had a pigtail as compared to the integrated socket on the assembly. Have to guess Yamaha got tired of replacing the wiring harness under warranty when the R/R burned up as it does way too often.

I would venture a guess that the Rectifier/Regulator is your only problem. BUT make sure you batteries are connected properly and the switch does not OPEN the connection when changing batteries. A make before break switch is required when switching the starting battery with the engine running.

 

[hawilson2]

Re: 2006 F115 low (no) voltage after running a while

Thanks for the response. Any idea where I can buy just the connector from for the lighting coil plug into the r/r? That would be a major savings.

I forgot to subtract the leads resistance from the lighting coil resistance measurements. With that subtracted, the resistance measured .4 ohms across all white (green) leads.

I never switch batteries while running.

 

[KJINTF]

Re: 2006 F115 low (no) voltage after running a while

Good to hear "I never switch batteries while running" - Sooo many folks do and pay the price
No wing nuts or AGM's on starting batteries with the Yamaha R/R system - or you will be paying the price

These guys might have the connector - they had the three terminal for the YDS interface that i needed
SMHW

Looking at your pics it does indeed look as if the wiring harness end connector is fried - a poor connection there will take out the R/R VERY quickly - Suggest you replace that connector before installing a new R/R

 

[boscoe99]

Re: 2006 F115 low (no) voltage after running a while

Good to hear "I never switch batteries while running" - Sooo many folks do and pay the price
No wing nuts or AGM's on starting batteries with the Yamaha R/R system - or you will be paying the price

Many have used AGM batteries with their Yams for years now with no problems whatsoever. Despite poo pooing AGM's for all those years Yamaha now says that it is just fine to use them.

The issue with wing nuts is they have no locking mechanism and folks only hand tighten then. If a lock washer is used and the wing nut tightened with a tool, no problemo. Folks won't, or don't know this, so Yam suggests they not be used. But, batteries with threaded posts come with them so folks use them.

That R/R is probably toast. Also the connector. You are lucky that the R/R did not catch fire and cause collateral damage. The R/R sheds lots of heat. Thus the cooling fins.

 

[hawilson2]

Re: 2006 F115 low (no) voltage after running a while

Will order a new R/R. I noticed they replaced the R/R part number with a new one. Hopefully the one with the pigtail. Old R/R part number was 68v-81960-00-00. New replacement part number is 6d3-81960-00-00. From pictures I could find o fteh new part it does not appear to have the pigtail. It has the integrated male plug like the old one.

That link to easternbeaver is not working. Any other advice to as to where to buy the connector?

Also, Thanks for all the help.

 

[KJINTF]

Re: 2006 F115 low (no) voltage after running a while

Boscoe99

I agree with you in general
but for me personally i would stay far away from any wing nuts on boat batteries both starting and trolling and NEVER use an AGM as a starting battery with the Yamaha R/R systems

The Yamaha R/R system is a constant voltage (IHMO EXCESSIVE Constant Voltage) actually almost a constant voltage it will vary a bit with engine RPM - It gets even higher

Yamaha specification says that 15.3 Volts DC is within their specs
For me and many others that is WAY TOO HIGH for a sealed battery if the motor is being run for hours at a time. A simple FLA Battery can handle that excessive voltage a lot easier by off gassing when needed. Not so with an AGM if it gets too hot and has to gas no way to recover it except to purchase a new battery.

Yes the R/R has been known to go up in flames more than once or twice

That new pigtail should save the cost of a new wiring harness when it goes south next time

Not sure about the link - it worked on a few of my computers
Try your other site post that link might work for you
Sorry that is the only place I am aware of that has the connectors

 

[hawilson2]

Re: 2006 F115 low (no) voltage after running a while

Found a site with a connector that appears the same:

Regulator Rectifier Connector Kit Yamaha 1999-2013 (Rhino,Road Star, V-Star, RS Venture, SX , Grizzly, Raptor, YFZ, STX)

Part is for a Yamaha Raptor, Grizzly , Rhine, etc... The r/r for those appears to be part number 5bn-81960-00-00. Very close to the one for my outboard (6d3-81960-00-00). The connector is $9.00. Think I will give it a shot. Hope this helps someone else in the future.

The link finally worked for me to easternbeaver, but it was difficult to find the right looking connector.

 

[hawilson2]

Re: 2006 F115 low (no) voltage after running a while

Can someone confirm that for my motor, 2006 F115 (68v-L-1055558) I need regulator/rectifier part number, 6D3-81960-00-00; which replaces the original part, 68V-81960-00-00. Just being paranoid. Thanks in advance.

 

[boscoe99]

Re: 2006 F115 low (no) voltage after running a while

Boscoe99

I agree with you in general
but for me personally i would stay far away from any wing nuts on boat batteries both starting and trolling and NEVER use an AGM as a starting battery with the Yamaha R/R systems

The Yamaha R/R system is a constant voltage (IHMO EXCESSIVE Constant Voltage) actually almost a constant voltage it will vary a bit with engine RPM - It gets even higher

Yamaha specification says that 15.3 Volts DC is within their specs
For me and many others that is WAY TOO HIGH for a sealed battery if the motor is being run for hours at a time. A simple FLA Battery can handle that excessive voltage a lot easier by off gassing when needed. Not so with an AGM if it gets too hot and has to gas no way to recover it except to purchase a new battery.

I would suspect that the current output is so low that an AGM battery will not be harmed by the output of an F115 R/R, but...

It would be interesting to put an ammeter on the battery cable to see just what is the actual current flow is to a fully charged battery if the R/R has an output voltage of 15.3 volts or so.

Yamaha is not the most authoritative source with respect to batteries. With their new AGM recommendations they also say it is also OK to use gell cell batteries. I think the voltage requirements for gells is less than for a flooded lead acid battery.

 

[boscoe99]

Re: 2006 F115 low (no) voltage after running a while

Can someone confirm that for my motor, 2006 F115 (68v-L-1055558) I need regulator/rectifier part number, 6D3-81960-00-00; which replaces the original part, 68V-81960-00-00. Just being paranoid. Thanks in advance.

My Yam data indicates the 68F prefix part is the correct one. The -00-00 has been superceded by the -02-00.

The 6D3 prefix is for an F60, F75 &F90 plus a bunch of non-marine products.

 

[KJINTF]

Re: 2006 F115 low (no) voltage after running a while

Boscoe

I personally have not heard of a Gel Cell Battery being sold in the past 10 years or more - not sure if they are being manufactured anymore

AGM's are here to stay, Gel cells are long gone - BOTH need to be properly cared for

I believe my Yamaha 2010 F90TLR has a 25amp charging capacity which is far more than needed to destroy a sealed battery (aka AGM) when connected at a constant 15.3 Volts while it's 80 F degrees outside - heat destroys the batteries - Take a look see at the battery manufacturers temperature compensation charts. Voltage drops fast as temp increases at that temp 13.4 is about right

Speaking from over 40 years experience designing systems and dealing with Solar PV charging systems on a daily basis now I fully understand multistage battery charging systems with adjustable temperature compensation. Take a look at the Morningstar Solar MPPT chargers they know and understand battery charging

 

[hawilson2]

Re: 2006 F115 low (no) voltage after running a while

Went to yamahaoutboards.com site and did their parts lookup. Put in my PID (serial number) 68v-L-1055558. Mine is a early 2006 model really made in 04 of 2005.. Looked at electrical 1 and part #14 is listed as 68v-81960-00-00. When I looked up that part number on the web many places had 6d3-81960-00-00 as superceeding it. PartsPak has it as:

Yamaha 68V-81960-00-00 Rectifier & Regulator Assembly; New # 6D3-81960-00-00

 

[boscoe99]

Re: 2006 F115 low (no) voltage after running a while

It is Yam that brought up the matter of gell cells, not me. They recently issued a bulletin about the acceptibility of their use with Yam outboards. Surprised the heck out of me.

I suspect that you know that just because a Yam has an output of 25 amps that it will all go to the battery. The motor itself consumes from 5 -10 amps and what is left is available to charge a battery. But even then, not all of the available current will flow to the battery.

Let's say we start with a charged battery that is nominally at 12.7 volts. The generator output is 15.3 volts. The battery has an internal resistance of some unknown to me value. With a difference of potential of less than three volts and some small amount of intrrnal resistance how much current will flow?

I instrumented my Yam F200 (greater electrical output capability) and with a fully charged battery connected, such that the generator output voltage stabilized at 14.6 volts, I only typically saw 2 -3 amps flowing to the battery. Might be a bit more if the generator output was at 15.3 volts.

What say yee?

 

[boscoe99]

Re: 2006 F115 low (no) voltage after running a while

Went to yamahaoutboards.com site and did their parts lookup. Put in my PID (serial number) 68v-L-1055558. Mine is a early 2006 model really made in 04 of 2005.. Looked at electrical 1 and part #14 is listed as 68v-81960-00-00. When I looked up that part number on the web many places had 6d3-81960-00-00 as superceeding it. PartsPak has it as:

Yamaha 68V-81960-00-00 Rectifier & Regulator Assembly; New # 6D3-81960-00-00

I don't know anything about that website. It does not agree with other online Yamaha dealers websites.

Call Yam USA directly and hear what they have to say. Get a tie breaker vote.


866-894-1626
Yamaha Outboards

 

[KJINTF]

Re: 2006 F115 low (no) voltage after running a while

It is Yam that brought up the matter of gell cells, not me. They recently issued a bulletin about the acceptibility of their use with Yam outboards. Surprised the heck out of me.

I suspect that you know that just because a Yam has an output of 25 amps that it will all go to the battery. The motor itself consumes from 5 -10 amps and what is left is available to charge a battery. But even then, not all of the available current will flow to the battery.

Let's say we start with a charged battery that is nominally at 12.7 volts. The generator output is 15.3 volts. The battery has an internal resistance of some unknown to me value. With a difference of potential of less than three volts and some small amount of intrrnal resistance how much current will flow?

I instrumented my Yam F200 (greater electrical output capability) and with a fully charged battery connected, such that the generator output voltage stabilized at 14.6 volts, I only typically saw 2 -3 amps flowing to the battery. Might be a bit more if the generator output was at 15.3 volts.

What say yee?

The Yamaha R/R system from what I can tell is NOT temperature compensated and typically runs with the high 14's as a fixed voltage - some even run in the low 15's - which IS excessive voltage and will destroy a VRLA Battery.

Sure wish Yamaha would take advantage of the ECM capabilities - add a thermal sensor and develop a PROPER multistage temperature compensated charging system maybe even with a remote voltage sense capability to replace the old brute force R/R system.

I guess we can only wish.....

Some info that might help folks better understand my concerns

A battery can
only store a certain quantity of electricity. The closer it gets
to being fully charged, the slower it must be charged.
Temperature also affects charging. If the right voltage is used
for the temperature, a battery will accept charge at its ideal
rate. If too much voltage is used, charge will be forced
through the battery faster than it can be stored.
Reactions other than the charging reaction also occur to
transport this current through the battery?mainly gassing.
Hydrogen and oxygen may be given off faster than the
recombination reaction. This raises the pressure until the
one-way, pressure-relief valve opens. The gas lost cannot
be replaced. Any VRLA battery will dry out and fail prematurely
if it experiences excessive overcharging.

Note: It is too much voltage that initiates this problem, not too
much charge ? a battery can be ?over-charged? (damaged
by too much voltage) even though it is not fully ?charged.?

What is a thermal runaway?
The appropriate charge voltage depends on the battery temperatures.
A warmer battery requires a reduced voltage. If the
voltage is not reduced, current accepted by the battery
increases. When the current increases, the internal heating
increases. This can rise to destructive levels if not taken into
consideration.
Thermal runaway can be prevented with:
n Temperature compensation monitoring at the battery ?
not at the charger.
n Limiting charging currents to appropriate levels.
n Allowing for adequate air circulation around the batteries.
n Using timers or ampere-hour counters.
n Using smart chargers that recognize the signature of a
thermal runaway event which will shut the charger down.

 

[hawilson2]

Re: 2006 F115 low (no) voltage after running a while

Called Yamaha support at number above. Seems we were both right. I gave them my Model and my PID (68v-L-105555). They came back with a replacement part for the original part. Replacement part was 6d3-81960-00-00. Then I mentioned the TSB 2008-024. and they gave me 3 parts (2 bolts- pt#: 90119-06m41-00, 1 clamp; pt# 68V-81528-00-00, and 1 R/R 68v-81960-10-00). I believe, this is the R/R with the piggytail wiring not directly attached. Must need the clamp to help support the new wiring. This was alluded to in a post I found about another model motor: Voltage Regulator - Yamaha Outboard Parts Forum

I want to really thank you all for helping me sort this out.