25 Mac or 24 Sovereign

[IslandManMitch]

I am looking at two different boats. One is a 1983 25' MacGregor, the other a 1984 24' Sovereign and don't know much about sailboats. I plan to sail the bays, sound and the Gulf of Mexico in Northwest Florida. I have plenty of powerboat time but don't know a lot about sail but think I am hooked. Any help on which boat? thanks, Mitch

 

[tommays]

Re: 25 Mac or 24 Sovereign

25' MacGregor <br /><br />its a budget boat that really does not even sail very well and if you compare the hardware to almost anything you will see what i am talking about<br /><br />1984 24' Sovereign <br /><br />cant really comment because i have never sailed on one <br /><br /><br />do your self a favor look a a boat like a J-24 were there are NO shortcuts taken on the boat or hardware<br /><br />it will give you a good idea of how a boat should be built and what good riging and hardware looks like <br /><br />no matter what you buy you should get a Marine Surveyor there are a lot of BAD things that can be going on with and older boat<br /><br /><br />tommays

 

[Triton II]

Re: 25 Mac or 24 Sovereign

The big problem with MacGregors is that you can't sit the crew out on the windward gunwales coz they don't have gunwales! But for a power boater crossing over to the blow boat side (I love 'em!) the MacG is a good choice due to the big outboards you can fit to them. Wind dies - fire up the 50 and go home! <br />I've sailed J24s, RL24s, Careel 22s and they're all OK but then again they're all compromised due to being trailerable. IMO the best baby yacht in that size range is the Noelex, check out http://www.noelex.com/

 

[Triton II]

Re: 25 Mac or 24 Sovereign

Sorry, double post caused by cat walking across keyboard!

 

[IslandManMitch]

Re: 25 Mac or 24 Sovereign

Thanks for the info so far but my only choices are these two. Both boats are hurricane damaged boats that are selling cheap (below $1,000 each I think is cheap). The Mac has fiberglass damage on the port bow from a piling but is not beyond my ability to repair. It has a new looking main, jib and spinnaker a 4.5 Johnson sailor but no trailer. The Sovereign has a main, jib, 9.9 Sailmaster Johnson and aluminum trailer. The only damage it has is a broken mast which I can repair. I know both hulls are sound from years of rebuilding and repairing powerboats. I think the Sovereign is a better built boat just from looking at the thickness of the fiberglass and heavier rigging (is thicker and heavier better on a sailboat?)but that is from the eyes of a 30 year powerboat man. I have found all kinds of Mac info but little on the Sovereign other than it is built on a S2 type or style hull whatever that means. Maybe with this info ya'll can give me more direction. I have to sail or walk by this weekend. Thanks again, Mitch

 

[Triton II]

Re: 25 Mac or 24 Sovereign

If you go with the Sovereign check the mast step area for stress cracks. As you mention it's easier to repair masts than hulls. Rigging is a compromise - heavier rigging doesn't help performance in light airs but sure helps when it blows hard. I'm not familiar with Sovereign as a brand but looking at this makes me think it'd be a better bet than the MacG in the long term.<br /> http://www.sailingtexas.com/ssovereign24a.html

 

[BillP]

Re: 25 Mac or 24 Sovereign

You are looking at 2 totally different boats. The mac 25 is lighter with retractable keel, kick up rudder and less draft. Hull bottom is flattish with rounded chines...more initial stability and less heeling. They shouldn't be compared to a J24 for sailability but macs have surprised a lot of people with their speed and performance. Read up on them and you will learn they took 1st place in the annual California to Mexico race SEVERAL times...that's first to finish (beating all sizes and types)and not first by using handicap. Macs use interior space well but don't have full <br />headroom. Gear and rigging is minimal but 2 people can launch and get the rig up/down easily. It will trailer launch on more ramps due to less draft. <br /><br />Sovereign is above average for quality. They have fixed fin keel with dinghy type hung rudder. Draft is approx 30". Hull is round and has less initial stability. Sailing performance should be considered as in the "cruiser class"...not bad and not extremly good. There are 2 deck designs and two different interiors. One is divided into a cabin fwd with vee berths and the other open. Both have enclosed heads. The Princess model is the fancy model with teak interior, etc. Sovereigns aren't really made as trailer boats.<br /><br />I have original brochures on the Sovereign but can't find them right now. If they turn up I can scan and post.

 

[IslandManMitch]

Re: 25 Mac or 24 Sovereign

I would like to thank everyone for the information provided. Hey BillP I would really like the Sovereign brochures to copy if you can find them. This one has the teak interior with a separate forward cabin. I have Mac brochures I found in the boat. After Reading your post (most informative) I believe I will buy both boats and after sailing each one for a while, I will decide which one to keep. Do you think I should have any reservations about sailing either in the Gulf of Mexico? I have read two different stories about Macs crossing the Gulf Stream to the Bahamas so they must be somewhat seaworthy. If the Sovereign is better built I would think it would be OK also? Thanks, Mitch

 

[BillP]

Re: 25 Mac or 24 Sovereign

The Sovereign is more seaworthy but either will sail across to the Bahamas without a problem. The mac would be more fun exploring because it has less draft. I cruised the Bahamas 2 yrs and saw several Macs cruising. <br /><br />Here's two pages from the Sovereign brochure. There's also a flush deck bubble roof version of the Princess but this brochure doesn't show it. The "B" interior is with fwd cabin and shown as the Adventure model.<br /><br />

<br /><br />

 

[flashback]

Re: 25 Mac or 24 Sovereign

Hi Mitch, I have sailed on both boats and much prefer the sovereign over the mac..and that newer mac that triton speaks of is an abomination, it doesn't sail OR motor well.. I believe the one Billp is talking about is the 65 footer which is a rocket ship, very fast.. that being said, I'm a bit of a purist and prefer the fixed keel, you need to do what works for you... good luck

 

[IslandManMitch]

Re: 25 Mac or 24 Sovereign

Thanks Flashback, I believe just about every sailor knows about MacGregors but you are only the second one ( The other BillP and he had brochures) that knows anything about the Sovereign. I have asked around locally and nobody could tell me anything about them. I searched the internet and other than for sale boats found much of nothing and for sure no one that had sailed one. I was sold on the Sovereign until BillP told me that the Mac was great for exploring due to it floating shallow and we do have some skinny water around here that even 30" draft would be to much. So I bought both boats yesterday and have the Mac in my boatyard. I will move the Sovereign today. I plan to start on them soon and after they are seaworthy I am sure I will be asking more questions about sailing like the Sovereign has a "whisker pole" and I was told it has something to do with downwind sailing and the jib. I will have to get a good how to sail book to find out just how it works and ask questions here. Mitch

 

[flashback]

Re: 25 Mac or 24 Sovereign

sounds like you did a good thing, fix them both up and take your pick.. if you can afford it... but I think you will enjoy the sovereign....

 

[Bill kubiak]

Re: 25 Mac or 24 Sovereign

As a former owner of an 83 Mac 25 and a current owner of a 1994 Mac 26S and a member of the Miami Macs Sailing club, I have this to say, there are thousands and thousands of Macs out there, more of them then any other sailboat built that has got to say something, as a matter of fact the Mac 25 was voted sailboat of the year a few years back. Check out the macgregors on both the Sailnet and Sailjazz lists and the macgregeor owners . com

 

[IslandManMitch]

Re: 25 Mac or 24 Sovereign

I have repaired the fiberglass damage to the Mac but still have to match the gelcoat. I took it to St. Joseph Bay this past weekend with a friend that knows how to sail. This place is great for snorkeling and the Blue Crabs were jubileeing while we were there, I have had so many crabs I bubble when I talk. This Bay is beautiful but shallow and opens into the Gulf of Mexico. I now know what BillP was talking about the Mac being more fun when you need shallow draft. We sailed the Gulf a little and the Bay a lot but if I had been in the fixed keel boat we would have been very limited on access to a lot of the Bay area. Most of the time we could nose the Mac right up to the beach. We stayed overnight with a Honda generator for air conditioning and the boat was not cramped for two people and gear. The Mac did not come with a trailer so I used the one from the Sovereign and it trailed like a champ. At first I was 90% sold on the Sovereign but I have to say the Mac has a lot of pluses and I have shifted the percentage somewhat. I have not sailed the Sovereign due to the broken mast but I will have a better idea when I do. Mitch

 

[BillP]

Re: 25 Mac or 24 Sovereign

I sailed on an early mac 25 earlier this year. The biggest beef I had was the mainsail didn't use slugs to slide in the mast track...instead it used the old boltrope method. It made lowering and raising a pain because you had to hand feed it to prevent binding. The owner later sewed slugs on and that problem was gone.

 

[IslandManMitch]

Re: 25 Mac or 24 Sovereign

From the new look of the sails that came with the Mac I am sure they are not original but fairly new replacements. The main sail has slugs so raising or lowering was no problem. When comparing the two different boats I can't help but feel like the Mac is a Bayliner and the Sovereign a Grady White (power boats I can relate). My biggest concern was that everything on the Mac is so much lighter weight than on the Sovereign that I was not sure if it was sea worthy enough to coastal sail the Gulf of Mexico. The fiberglass is a lot thinner, weighs a lot less, mast is smaller "but I think is as tall," rigging is smaller, hardware is smaller and interior is sparse. I guess most of those things help make it so easy to trailer and sail in light wind. I also like the way the top pops up to give a lot of light and ventilation. Being able to nose right up to the beach is a plus, I guess that is why the Sovereign came with an inflatable dingy and the Mac didn't? I need to sail the Sovereign before I let the BayMac charm me into keeping it without giving the Sovereign a chance. Thanks, Mitch

 

[BillP]

Re: 25 Mac or 24 Sovereign

I think you are right about the Sovereign having a bit more quality but macs do the job better in shallow water. Consider displacement and the mac has the right size rigging...but nothing is oversize.

 

[flashback]

Re: 25 Mac or 24 Sovereign

Mitch, can you adjust the standing rigging on the Mac..? most Macs I have seen don't have turnbuckles, but flat steel plates that you put a bolt into the closest hole you can get to.... not my idea of good rig tension... 2... most mac's have a swing keel that has no hydrofoil shape at all, just a flat piece of cast iron, not good for sailing up wind... It's all in what you want out of the boat.. The older Mac 25's are a lot better than the power/sailer they have out now. but all in all the Sovereign is a BETTER SAILING BOAT....Please try them both.. If you want a boat you can beach, then the Mac is for you, If you want a boat that sails, then keep the Sovereign, sell the Mac, and use the money to restore a good boat.......

 

[IslandManMitch]

Re: 25 Mac or 24 Sovereign

BillP the shallow draft was a plus over the weekend and I understand why you say it is something to consider for exploring. Not knowing St. Joseph's Bay, we ran aground a couple of times but all we had to do was raise the keel and away we went. We had to trailer 150 miles to get there but the scallops we got was worth the drive. I am glad to know the rigging is not undersized and how you explained because of the light the displacment makes sense to me.<br /> Flashback the Mac has turnbuckles and came with a Loos tension gauge to set them. If it did not come factory equipped with turnbuckles maybe the standing rigging has been replaced and they were added? Other than the hurricane damaged bow the boat looks to have been very well maintained and appears to be in excellent condition. With my limited sailing I could not tell you if the boat sailed poorly upwind so I will take your learn opinion it does. I hope to sail on a couple of other boats to get a better idea what is excellent or poor. I will surely sail the Sovereign before I would sell it. I think deep down it is the boat to keep.<br /> I came to this site, to get information, opinions and ideas that I could not find in any books. Everyone has enlightened me to some point or other and I thank ya'll. I welcome any and all information or advice. Mitch

 

[flashback]

Re: 25 Mac or 24 Sovereign

Mitch, seems you have a good handle on what you have and also a good feeling on the good and bad points.. My first boat was a 21 ft Mac, it did not have turnbuckles and did not sail upwind very well but that being said, it was a fun boat .. I don't try to talk down any boat, but encourage you to try them both and see what fits you best...good luck.....