400 less wot rpm

tootoot

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Sep 11, 2005
Messages
132
1975 Somerset 19' 302 225 hp 351 heads mercruiser od 888. Replaced with rebuilt 302 w/marine cam 351 heads sterndrive od same 4160 4 brl holly. Hull is clean and only had one person on board and normal weight.(approx. 3500 lbs) I was hoping for the same or a little more hp on the new motor. I have approx 8 hours (still breaking it in) on the motor and outdrive. Outdrive has a little different ratio (was 1;50 now 1;48) Couldnt resist it and opened it for about 5 seconds yesterday to see what it would turn. Only got 4000 out of her. Used to get 4400. Question Is the difference in the outdrive ratio and the tightness of the new motor the reason Im not getting the rpm or is it needing a smaller prop? Seems to be getting good economy. runs 32 at 3000, 37 at 3500 and 42 at 4000.
 

Haut Medoc

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Jun 29, 2004
Messages
10,645
Re: 400 less wot rpm

Welcome back Toot....Actually 4000 is right in the middle of the range for the 3800-4200 WOT spec. (Ford is 400 rpm's lower, than Chevy)....What do the #'s (Speed) say? Any increase or decrease? If you go down a pitch you would be about 4400, that is over-revving by the book.....The engine will turn less with the 1.47:1 in theory....As far as HP or torque, do you know if you have the exact same cam? 1 MPH per 100 rpm is about right...The only other thing I would check is that the carb. is opening fully....& look at the plugs for any mixture issues....I am assuming that the timing is spot on....I would not re-prop to get back those 400 rpm......JK
 

tootoot

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Sep 11, 2005
Messages
132
Re: 400 less wot rpm

Hey Haut, Good to be back and talking about fairly good things instead of pulling motors and blowing up outdrives. I think (hope) I got her right now. As to the cam, I didnt check the old one for lift or duration. Wish I had now. An Elgin marine (think 927) was recommended and was as radical as I could go without complicating things like porting, springs, carbs etc. The original motor lasted 30 years of freshwater tubing and sking so I figures to try to stay around how the original was designed. Actually it was still ok until a riser went and it sucked up a bunch of salt water. Got one of those sterndrive outdrives and other than the fact that it seems to have a slightly louder whine to it than the 888, so far so good. I checked the mag plug after 8 hours and it just had a little black fuzz on it. Ive got more money in the boat than its worth but I learned alot and knowledge is good to have. I actually had the trust to take it out without a kicker. (Im trying to justify it Ha Ha) Anyways thanks for your thorough reply. The last time I took it out, I was alone. I'll check out the carb as soon as I can. Thanks.
 

markvictor

Seaman
Joined
Dec 14, 2005
Messages
62
Re: 400 less wot rpm

Here's the rub...<br />the 3800 to 4200 rpm spec is for an out of box mercruiser, which yours is not...4400 is still a conservative rpm for that motor...that said,you did not state your goal...speed, power out of the hole... As for a "marine cam", what is the grind?(lift/duration)...this can make a difference<br />when calculating the volumetric efficiency of your carburetion (and exhaust)and also determines at which rpm your engine will make its peak horsepower and torque. The simplest solution to more rpm (which has little to do with getting it "right") would be to drop an inch or so in pitch as someone already mentioned...this would give you a measured increase in wot rpm...with likely no increase in top speed, and quite possibly a slightly lower top speed, the trade-off would be faster times to achieve plane,faster out of the hole...good for pulling skiers and tubes,etc.<br />Now for the technical...A holley carb is NOT a bolt on application. A holley is a jewel if you know Holleys, and a nemesis if you don't...The likelihood of the carb being right from one engine to the new one is almost ZERO...The first thing that must be done is take a vacuum reading on the warm engine at idle..ln lnches of mercury,then the carb must be disassembled and a power valve of approximately half the idle vacuum plus<br /> an inch or so installed...this prevents an idle-rich condition and provides proper amounts of fuel on demand..The secondary power valve must be of a sufficiently lower vacuum rating so that it opens in conjunction with the secondary throttle plate.. Then comes on-water tests to arrive at the proper combination of jets which will be affected by prop, drive ratio, altitude etc... the float levels are critical as well as the pick-up point on the accellerator pump linkage...One of the key clues here is the fact that you have a new motor and cam profile...this requires a thorough massaging of that Holley to make it work as designed...that is the only way you will ever get the full potential of that carb and thus the powertrain. I am a mercruiser tech of many years, and I have been building Holleys for almost 30 years..I personally love them, but like I said, they are a world away from being a bolt-on...<br />The second problem you face is that your exhaust may not be efficient enough for the carb and cam combination...this can only be determined mathematically...visit a performance forum or any carburetion website for the formulas if you are interested...you may find it in your best interest to switch to a Weber(now built by Rochester)They are a much easier beast to tame, and truth be told a better "fit" for general pleasure boat applications...Best of luck<br />Regards,<br />markvictor<br /><br /> http://groups.google.com/group/badboatbiz
 

tootoot

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Sep 11, 2005
Messages
132
Re: 400 less wot rpm

Hey Mark, Thanks for the information. I am going to take this as fact. It seems you are well versed on this issue. I do want it "right" or wouldn't have went to the trouble and expense of a new engine and outdrive on a 30 yr boat. Her design is what I wanted. Here is the cam info. (Elgin 959P Lift Int. 448 Ex. 472 Dur. Int. 270 Ex. 280. Duration @50 204 intake, 214 Exaust.) The boat now is used for fishing and diving. Dont need out of the hole, speed and economy in that order are my goals. Couple questions. (1) Regarding the secondary power valve being a sufficiently lower vacuum. (How much lower?) I just rebuilt the 4160 so not sure if I want to buy a Weber. (2) If possible, I would like some input on the cam installed.
 

markvictor

Seaman
Joined
Dec 14, 2005
Messages
62
Re: 400 less wot rpm

Hey Toot toot, The carb that you are running(now that I know the model) probably will not have a power valve in the secondary metering block....so not to worry..Here's a couple links that will help you set it up...(your cam profile is relatively a "mild grind", and should not result in the vacuum reduction you might see with a taller grind)<br /> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=r...8Q63VHsm4YOu9ncwD&sig2=zWrT9KKL0YOJ5ND53Xb7cA <br /> http://www.holley.com/data/Products/Technical/199R9934-3.pdf&ei=s[Im-8Q_DlOKTwoQLlwqGLCA&sig2=8rin-wNpV17V6nVX3vZVAQ <br /> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=r...8Q4ODMc-8YL7rtOAD&sig2=QYcAPJCO0jR5Uqm5O9nreg <br />
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ron7000

Banned
Joined
Jul 10, 2004
Messages
498
Re: 400 less wot rpm

if you're running a new outdrive, you said "one of those sterndrive outdrives" did you mean a drive by sterndrive engineering? If the drive is brand new, and you mentioned it had a louder whine to it, then that is most likely robbing you of the 100-200 rpms at top end. Give the drive a 100 hours or so to wear in and you'll probably see close to your old wot rpms.<br /><br />The outdrive ratio isn't enough to cause a noticable difference. At 4400 rpms, 1.48/1.5 is 58 rpms.<br /><br />Mark has some good points but i disagree in regards to wot rpm and that they are a bolt on carb. That is one of the nice things about them, you tell holley you have a 302/305, 350/351, 454/460 and they send the right carb with the right jetting and pwr valve for that application. Once at wide open throttle or the engine making max power, it wouldn't matter what power valve is in there, it's going to be open, intake manifold vacuum = 0. If he wasn't getting close to wot, then I'd agree the pwr valve might be the culprit, but if it get's to 4000 no problem and sounds good, it's not a carb problem (necessarily). A holley will maintain the same air/fuel ratio regardless of the motor, only in regards to airflow. If the max airflow is exceeded to what the carb is capable then it'll lean out but I highly doubt this is the case here since it's still a 302. Maybe if you got the cc difference between the old and new heads and you can figure out if there's a max cfm difference of the new motor compared to the old, then you may be able to determine if a carb adjustment or change is necessary. But I still think you're just losing the power through the new outdrive, if it is new.<br /><br />forgot to mention, I just happen to have a almost brand new, in the box, holley 450cfm 4-barrel marine carb, for the 302. I bought it for a friend who never paid so I still have it. It's only been used for about 2 hours so I know it works, I have no need for it so if you or anyone's interested let me know.
 

Bondo

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 17, 2002
Messages
71,082
Re: 400 less wot rpm

Give the Whole Thing some Time.........<br /><br />8 hours Isn't Broke In........<br /><br />Give it an Oil Change(Engine,+ Drive) at 20/25hrs.......<br />Then Again at 50hrs......<br /><br />After the 50 hour mark,........ Then start Power Tuning It......... ;)
 

paulie0735

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Dec 6, 2005
Messages
463
Re: 400 less wot rpm

Just a point on the heads, I'm assuming you are talking Cleveland. 351 heads are not all the same. Big difference was open or closed chambers which gave vastly different compression ratios also different valve sizes from year to year. (Not to mention the over ported 4v heads similar to the Boss engines). If your new heads are 351 open chamber and the old were closed chamber than your compression ratio will reduced significantly. Just my thoughts. Good luck.
 

markvictor

Seaman
Joined
Dec 14, 2005
Messages
62
Re: 400 less wot rpm

Ron, if you read his post you would understand why the holley is not a straight swap, and if you really knew holley's you would know that they will never give their full potential until tuned to the application , yeah they work out of the box, but if they were perfect from the factory for any given application carb tuners would be obsolete (they are not, ask anyone in motorsports ) and Holley would not sell and advocate " Track Packs " If you know Holleys you know what that is as well...
 

tootoot

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Sep 11, 2005
Messages
132
Re: 400 less wot rpm

Hey guys, thanks alot. you have nt only answered my question but givin me a lot of work. No seriously, thanks. It just got cold here so Im gonna give it a rest until it warms up a bit. By the way, those Holly sites are great, thanks mark.
 
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