454 not starting

[swansont]

Ok, another new guy, new to the forum and new to I/Os. Plenty of experience with outboards, but am figuring out that doesn’t help much. I have 87 Sea Ray 210 Monaco with a 454 Alpha drive. I know that’s not a common build, the original owner had it custom manufactured. Bought it midsummer last year and had no problems with it. Winterized it myself, pulled every hose and plug out, was sure I got all the water out. Here comes the new guy part, I then tried to suck anti-freeze into the block via a hose and muffs. Ran the motor for probable two minutes before realizing that I wasn’t going to get anywhere, since the water pump had no water for priming itself. Shut it down, temp gauge was well below normal operating range. Wasn’t to worried about it, was sure that all water was out of system for winter. <br /><br />That’s the history, now for my problem. Got it ready for the season in early June, started with muffs on and got water through the system. No problem. Just this weekend finally got it out to the lake, started fine, went to meet the family at the shore and loaded six kids in for some tubing. Started fine again, went to the other side of the lake, shut down and aired up tubes. After about ten minutes, went to start and got nothing except a heavy CHUNK, from starter engaging. Pulled the cover, could see starter flexing as the drive was engaging but would not turn the engine over, would only slightly move the pulleys. Checked connections on everything, cable on solenoid slightly loose, no corrosion. Has two new 950 CCA batteries and cables are perfect, no corrosion. Even holding the cable snug to solenoid would only get me a CHUNK, from the starter. Am charging batteries now, but decided to see if I could surf to a solution. After hitting a few sites and ending up here I have a diagnosis of my problem, thought I would see what you good people think. <br /><br />I believe I have water in my cylinders causing it to be “hydraulic”. The water most likely seeped past my exhaust seal because it was burnt from last falls starting with no water in the block or system. It probably didn’t help being a little overloaded in the back of the boat with a bunch of kids on the swim platform and rear bench. <br /><br />Now my questions, do you think this is the correct diagnosis. If it is, would I have this problem without the overloading factor. If it must be repaired, has anyone done this. I am stubborn about doing my own work (it sometimes bites me, as in first time winterizing), I have engine/tranny swaps, part changouts and the like on my vehicles. Any input is appreciated.<br /><br />Sorry for the long post.

 

[robpoe]

Re: 454 not starting

Pull all the spark plugs, then see if it will turn over. If water shoots out of the hole(s) then it was hydrolocked. I warn, though - I am not a novice engine mechanic - but am not a marine mechanic. This would work in a car/truck/motorcycle - so I'd imagine it'd work to check out your motor, too...<br /><br />Don't try turning over the motor any more without finding the problem out. If it IS hydrolocked, you need to get the water out ASAP, so the cylinders dont rust (rings, etc) and you'll need to change the oil soon too (water will leak past the rings into the crank case). Also, if you dont get water out and still try to start it, you have a chance at bending a rod (expensive$$$)<br /><br />good luck!

 

[Chris1956]

Re: 454 not starting

I think it is hydrolocked also. As Rob Poe says, pull the plugs, get the water out and oil up the cylinders. <br />Now you need to find the leak. Motors can leak water through a hole or crack in the water jacket of the exhaust manifold or exhaust riser. Another place is the head gasket. After the cylinders are oiled, I would perform a compression test and check for two adjacent cylinders having low compression. This is usually a bad head gasket. If the compression is good on all cylinders, pull the exhaust manifolds and inspect for water leakage past the riser gasket of cracks.<br /><br />Another possibility is that water could have been sucked in through a good exhaust system. This usually occurs when you throttle back quickly, and is more likely if the boat's stern sits low in the water.<br /><br />Let us know how you make out!

 

[swansont]

Re: 454 not starting

Thanks for the responses, I finally have some time to pull the plugs tonight, will start with that. I am just hoping that I didn't do any further damage trying to start it out on the water. Will let you know more as I find out.

 

[Blk-n-Blu]

Re: 454 not starting

Swan, Check this link <br /> http://www.marinemechanic.com/site/page88.html <br />and Good luck

 

[swansont]

Re: 454 not starting

Thanks B-n-B, that was one of the ones I saw earlier, was helpful in the diagnosis. I was hydro-locked, pulled plugs and pushed water out of cylinders. Motor spun around evenly, didn't seem to drag at any point and didn't here any bad stuff knocking around inside. Optimistic that I didn't do any serious damage. Pulled exhausts apart, had partially melted the rubber seal at the edges of the water shutters. I am pretty sure this is the first time this has happened to this motor, there was no rust inside the exhaust manifolds. I am sure that having the back end of the boat overloaded didn't help, will watch that in the future. I am looking for the new water shutters around here so that I can try to get it back together tomorrow and maybe try the lake Sunday. If I can't get them here then I will order on-line, hate to wait a week for parts though. Thanks again for the replies, will keep you posted as I get it together, in more ways than one! Oh, forgot to mention, yes some of the water had seeped past the rings and made it to the pan, so will be changing oil and filter. Have never done it on this motor, have read that it is best to suck it out with a pump, are they available at the boat shops? Or does anyone have any other ideas for getting oil out of a 454?

 

[Blk-n-Blu]

Re: 454 not starting

swan, the oil pump should get most of it out and once you do you might want to pull the plug on the oil pan and get the rest,the oil filter needs to be changed as well, a plastic bag over the filter with some rags in it will keep spillage to a minimum.I might think the weight on the boat had little to do with water ingestion. How many cylinders had water and what were the cylinder numbers,You very well may have a bad manifold.

 

[swansont]

Re: 454 not starting

All eight had some water in them, like I said the rubber seal area at the edge of the exhaust shutters was broken away were it had melted to the point of exposing the metal base. But parts of the edge were intact, so there is no way they were sealing enough to keep water out. I really hope that it is not the manifolds. Like you said the weight if the boat with the 454 in it and six or seven kids at the back on the swim deck or the bench would put the boat pretty low. I just had never paid attention to it before. I'll put new shutters in and see what happens. At least I know what it means now when the engine won't turn over, and won't push it to far.

 

[yoced]

Re: 454 not starting

Swan - you may want to take a better look at your exhaust manifolds and riser gaskets. <br />Remember that lack of water? Your engine temp while on this no-water diet was not correctly reflected by the gauge since the sender was not properly sitting in the water stream. <br />While I don't think your two minutes could have done much damage, why not look anyway? Have the manifolds pressure tested, and run that compression test as chris suggested.<br /><br />Also, if you had by any chance ended that two minutes of dry running with any kind of non-hot water being introduced then I can almost guarrantee cracked manifolds.