68 65hp Won't Run...

[nuttyboater]

Here is the problem, when cranking she will pop every 1/2-3/4 turn of the flywheel, which disengages the starter, but it won't take off and run. So its crank pop, crank pop, crank pop.. I have been doing this over and over and over, with ample time for the starter to cool of course.

I replaced the plugs, four new Champion 77's, checked for spark on each cylinder with a tester set to .030, nice bright blue spark on each cylinder.

Pulled apart the fuel pump and the carb, all clean and working, the fuel bowl is filling up, and there is fuel flowing through the carb and into the engine because the plugs are wet after cranking. The carb was also rebuilt last year, it was ran in a barrel for about ten minutes and then run dry and stored back in the garage, and this is the first time i have put fuel back into it since i bought it, my stepmom didn't want to sell it back then but did this year.

The best i can tell is the mixture screws aren't right. I drove to a local shop last week and looked at their service manual, also called them today to verify, and they said to lightly seat the mixture screws and then back them out 1-1 1/2 turns and go from there. Problem is i can't get it running long enough to make any kind of adjustments.

Anyone got some better info on the mixture screws?? I have tried everything from closed to 3 turns open, in 1/8-1/4 turn increments. It won't start and continue running anywhere. As suggested by another mechanic i put gas in the carbs, been there done that before when rebuilding the carb's on snowblowers and lawnmowers so i knew the drill, but that doesn't help because then its flooded and takes a hell of a lot of cranking, or taking the plugs out and cranking, to get all the excess fuel out and get it popping again.

I have moved the throttle from idle to WOT and it doesn't make any difference in trying to start it.

At this point i'm just fed up and wanting to put a bullet through it, but before i do give me some suggestions because i'm out of ideas.

To Recap...

1. It has spark on all four cylinders, nice and bright blue, as tested with a spark tester.

2. It has fuel, took the carb and pump apart and they are flawlessly clean.

3. It has brand new freshly mixed fuel, 50:1.

4. Adjusting the mixture screws in and out doesn't seem to help any, moving the throttle while cranking doesn't help any. Oh, and the choke doesn't have any affect either.

The only thing i can think of is borrowing the gauge and doing another compression test, but it checked out before being stored last year.

 

[F_R]

Re: 68 65hp Won't Run...

It obviously is firing out of time. Are you certian that the plug wires are on the correct plugs? Thre are two sets of breaker points under the flywheel that tell it when to fire. They must be gapped to Exactly .009-.010" at their widest opening. When is the last time they have been checked? Look for defects in the distributor cap while you have it off. And clean and very lightly lube the anti-reverse cut-out ring with just a bit of EP grease. You said your spark tester was set to .030. That isn't nearly enough. Try at least 1/4". By "new set of 77's plugs" do you mean L77JC4? That is good. On the other hand, if you mean a surface gap plug, throw them the heck away and put in the L77JC4.

It should start and run with the mixture screws at 1 1/2 turn. If your plugs are getting dripping wet, you must be having flooding issues. The float valve must not be shutting off the fuel flow.

So many possibilities, but you asked.

 

[nuttyboater]

Re: 68 65hp Won't Run...

Ok, let me try to answer everything here from your post.

Wires are all labeled for their cylinder number, and they are all on the correct plugs.

I had the flywheel off, had to drive to a shop nearby and borrow a wrench large enough and a flywheel puller to get that off. The points and distributor cap looked good, i didn't measure the gap but turned the engine with the nut and wrench in place of the flywheel and watched them open and close, put a dollar bill between them when closed and pulled it out to clean, old trick i learned for cleaning relay contacts years ago.

Anyway to tell if the timing is correct?? There is a timing mark on the flywheel but other than that i don't know how to check on this motor.

I don't see or understand what this anti-reverse cut-out ring is.

Ok, with the spark tester set that far apart, i was told it should be set to the gap the plugs will be set for, i still get a nice blue spark across, not quite as large but still plenty that it should be firing.


Yes, Champion 77JC4's, i posted on here a little while ago asking which plugs this motor should have and went and bought a new set, gapped them to .030 as suggested and installed them.

I played with the mixture screws again, now the plugs are staying dry if i crank and check them, so now its like its not getting any fuel in the engine, but again dumping gas into the carbs still doesn't work. I will see if i can find a squirt bottle and put some fuel in each cylinder and try that for the heck of it.

The float valve is working fine, took the carb off again, still sitting in the house, the float moves freely and the needle is closing off the flow.

I will put the carb back on tomorrow and try once again... I don't know what else to do at this point. If it still won't run i will toss a for sale sign on it and say the heck with it, so much for this adventure, what a waste of money so far.

 

[F_R]

Re: 68 65hp Won't Run...

The only timing issue is full advance timing and that will not affect starting because you don't start it at full advance anyway. Don't mess with the timing setting without good reason, a service manual and a timing light that works at high RPM.

Of course the throttle linkage also affects timing as it advances and retards the spark to control speed.

The anti-reverse cut-out ring: That motor is fully capable of running backwards. There is a silver wire spring that rides on the crankshaft and tries to rotate with it. In the normal rotation direction, the ring goes up against an insulator block and does nothing. But if it tries to run backwards, the ring goes up against a terminal that shorts out and kills the ignition. It is completely trouble free unless it is neglected. Then it wears and metal dust particles foul the points and distributor cap. Metal dust particles in the distributor cap can cause cross-firing. If it wears badly enough it will wear in two and fall apart, possibly shorting out the points with the broken pieces.

 

[nuttyboater]

Re: 68 65hp Won't Run...

Well there isn't any indication of wear in there like you mention, its clean, and i see the part your talking about, enough grease on there already, adding some ain't going to help anything.

I got it to fire momentarily today after putting the engine back together and putting the carb back on.

It idles rough as heck, you have to crank it till the battery is dead before it starts, and it won't throttle up. If you push the throttle forward the engine stays at the same speed but takes on a wheezy sound, it doesnt speed up or slow down, the sound of it running just changes. Don't know how to explain that any better.

The battery is dead again, waiting for the charger to top it off so i can go out and try cranking it again. At this point my fingers hurt from holding the ignition key so much, and my arms are tired from using the emergency pull cord. It still won't start right, takes a good 15-20 minutes to get it running each time, then runs like crap for 20-30 seconds and dies and won't restart.

Any idea why its just dying once i do get it running???

 

[nuttyboater]

Re: 68 65hp Won't Run...

Took the flywheel off again, checked the points gap again, and set them to .010 just for the heck of it, they were at .009.

I bought a new fuel line, the line from the tank with the squeeze bulb, as the connectors felt a bit sloppy on each end. I also replaced the line from the pump to the carb as it looked a bit dry.

Now it starts up after a couple tries, working the throttle and the choke until i find the right combination, but it still won't idle and it sounds like its missing on 1-2 cylinders.

The next thing i'm thinking of trying is a new set of points and wires. The only problem is how do you remove the wires?? Are they the type where the stator has screws in there that the wires thread onto or?? I can't get any of the plug wires to come out, and i don't want to break anything i can't replace.

I've been searching a better part of the day for the points as is.

Any reason other than the points and wires why it would be missing? I got new plugs in it, gapped to .030.

I'm getting tired of throwing money and parts at it!

 

[nuttyboater]

Re: 68 65hp Won't Run...

Anyone know where i can get the rotor for this motor?

Rotor 382424

Can't find it anywhere at this point. I even called everyone in the yellow pages in my part of the world. Did some google searching until i was sick of looking at the results.

Its a weird rotor, its just a plastic hub with a point on one side, i'm assuming it works by a magnet since there is no contacts on it like an auto rotor? It spins inside the distributor which has the stator on the outside of it, its on there so tight i can't remove it.

Still haven't figured out how to remove the plug wires from the distributor, won't budge.

Found some points on eBay, brand new in the OEM box. They aren't available anywhere else, NLA. NO sub available either, checked with dealers on that.

Hoping i can re-use the rotor but would like to find a source just in case, the rotor has a bit of crack in it but it doesn't seem to be anything that will affect it for now, but obviously its going to be needing replacement eventually. Just thinking if i can get new points on there i can find out if it solves the missing problem, if not then i will replace the rotor, if possible. And if neither of them work a big for sale sign is the next thing i'm going to do to it.

I'm serious, i just spent $60 on two sets of points. And if i spend that much on a rotor and it still doesn't run then its going down the road. If anyone on here is close enough to be interested let me know... Tyler, MN.

 

[F_R]

Re: 68 65hp Won't Run...

I guess you don't have a multimeter? You could have tested those points instead of throwing new ones in if it doesn't need them. The wires screw into the distributor cap.

Instead of guessing and throwing parts at it you should buy a factory service manual and study up on how all that stuff works. Or perhaps a for sale sign does make sense.

The rotor is no longer available from BRP. If anybody has one it is http://www.sea-way.com/index.htm

You will be buying a starter next. Holding the key till your fingers hurt? Heckuva good stress test for the starter. If it is going to start it will start in just a few turns.

 

[nguoi_viet41]

Re: 68 65hp Won't Run...

Here is the problem, when cranking she will pop every 1/2-3/4 turn of the flywheel, which disengages the starter, but it won't take off and run. So its crank pop, crank pop, crank pop.. I have been doing this over and over and over, with ample time for the starter to cool of course.

i have the same problem you have
what i did is clean inside the starter now it engages good and full turn flywheel
every time i try to cranking

 

[nuttyboater]

Re: 68 65hp Won't Run...

I guess you don't have a multimeter? You could have tested those points instead of throwing new ones in if it doesn't need them. The wires screw into the distributor cap.

Instead of guessing and throwing parts at it you should buy a factory service manual and study up on how all that stuff works. Or perhaps a for sale sign does make sense.

The rotor is no longer available from BRP. If anybody has one it is http://www.sea-way.com/index.htm

You will be buying a starter next. Holding the key till your fingers hurt? Heckuva good stress test for the starter. If it is going to start it will start in just a few turns.

Actually i have a couple nice expensive ones, Fluke models, and one clamp on model as well. A full workbench of electronics repair parts, tools, and test equipment, but these outboards are new to me.

I already said that i checked and rechecked the points, but they are not holding their adjustment. I pulled the flywheel off again and they were both staying closed, the spring that closes the points is shot on them, they just don't stay put after adjusting them. I tried setting them to .010 and cranking again, pulled it apart after it wouldn't run right again and guess what, points are messed up again. The plastic that runs on the shaft is also worn down badly on them, so its time for a new set. Tried cleaning them also, which i also mentioned in a previous post, thinking they were sticking but that didn't help either.

And as for the service manual, man you guys on here sure are hung up over manuals. Every time someone asks a question the first answer is buy a manual, you know not everyone has $40-50 to go buy an obsolete and hard to find service manual. Luckily i found a local shop that has one in the archives but they will only let me look at it while there, so i have to absorb as much of it as i can before driving home again.

Did i say i was cranking excessively?? NO.. But use that key over and over and over and over, for two days, and your fingers will hurt too. Darn switch is hard to turn and the key is one of those little buggers with hardly anything to grab onto for a person with big fingers.

I crank it 2-3 seconds, give it a minute or two rest, and try again. Whats wrong with that? If that burns out the starter than it was POS to begin with, look at the average amount of use a vehicles starter takes in a week's time. Then contemplate the fact that the boat only goes out a half dozen times a season, if i'm lucky, the starter should last the lifetime of the engine, but anyways...

Ordered a new set of points so i will put them in next week and see if they can hold their adjustment, unlike the old ones which appear to still be the originals, going to take some penetrating oil on the screws to make sure it all comes apart.

I tried unscrewing the spark plug wires from the distributor, don't budge. I will check with Sea Way for the Rotor, thanks for the tip. I also tried a few others that i see recommended on here all the time, nothing listed on their website so i sent them all an email in hopes i can scare one up if i need it.

I still can't find an explanation of how the distributor works on this model, not even the service manual that i was looking through today explains it. Is the Rotor a magnet which switches on and off the spark to each plug wire in that outer ring of the distributor? I know how a standard auto type works with a rotor that has a contact and the cap with its internal contacts, but this is all smooth without any exposed contacts, voodoo?