71 Johnson 60hp not running right?

[jhilton]

Let start with the problem, it seems to be jumping the spark between wires, the #2 cylinder is running all the time, #1 seems to be firing at 36 degrees btc, #3 runs some times. It is on a 14 foot aluminum boat, and top speed is around 25.

New cdi ignition and coil
Rebuilt all 3 carbs
made new shift selector switch on lathe and endmill, not paying $300.
changed reverse silonoid
#1 135 psi
#2 135 psi
#3 137 psi

 

[F_R]

Re: 71 Johnson 60hp not running right?

Of course if it actually is cross-firing the distributor cap would be suspect. You have checked the points gap, right? I hope you aren't still trying to run the original surface gap plugs. The best thing that ever happened to that motor is when they came out with the L77JC4 (QL77JC4) plugs. They will do wonders for straightening out those poorly running 60's.

 

[jhilton]

Re: 71 Johnson 60hp not running right?

Also I got this boat from the original owner, It has been sitting for 23 years. Do you think the plug wires are bad or is the points bad. I dont understad how 2 sets of points work 3 cylinders. I have some really good Accel wire on a spool is it ok to use on marine?

 

[jhilton]

Re: 71 Johnson 60hp not running right?

Which piece is the distributer cap? .010 gap on points and they look really clean but i cleaned them anyway. l77jc4 plugs.

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: 71 Johnson 60hp not running right?

Your motor works with one set of points because there is a distributor cap under the flywheel. If your motor sat around for 23 years, yes I would say that you should replace the points and spark plug wires. I use automotive type wires on my 1972 Johnson 65hp, which has a different iginition system than your motor, but they work just fine.

 

[F_R]

Re: 71 Johnson 60hp not running right?

Not true. There are two sets of points on a three lobed cam. Hook it up to a continuity meter and turn the shaft slowly and you will see that it does indeed make and break the circuit three times per revolution. .010" is correct.

Those Motorola systems have enough trouble getting the spark to the plugs without adding resistance from car wires.

 

[jhilton]

Re: 71 Johnson 60hp not running right?

I'm getting a really hot spark. Just changed the plug wires and it acts mildly better. If i rev the motor up for 5-10 seconds and let off it she idles great and the timing on #1 is 4 degrees, but after 4-5 seconds the timing goes back to 36 degrees and starts to idle poorly. With some mild corosion on the distributer cap and rotor could it be causing this. And how much is the timing suppost to advance? I allways have the problem that nobody has ever had, it has been that way my whole life, that is why is started working on everything my self. Couldn't afford the bill for someone else to do it 4-5 times. Thanks for the help, keep it coming.

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: 71 Johnson 60hp not running right?

F_R, educate me a bit - how does the ignition distribution work on this motor? While I wasn't paying attention in regard to two sets of points v. one, wouldn't the rotor still distribute the spark to the correct plug, as it rotates within the distributor cap? It looks to me like the distributor cap has leads spaced evenly at the "one third point," so that the "spark" is directed towards the correct cylinder.

 

[jhilton]

Re: 71 Johnson 60hp not running right?

Yes, that is how it is set up. I'm woundering if their was still some corosion on the cap could that cause the late or early timing. The fly wheel has 2 sets of timing marks. I'm going to check tomarow to see if it is firing late and hitting the start of the 2nd set of marks. If it is then it is firing late for some reason, witch would make sense of why i can't hear any detonation. Does this make sense to any one else.

 

[jhilton]

Re: 71 Johnson 60hp not running right?

I cleaned the corrosion off of the rotor and distributor and it runs better when i rev it up. But when i drop back to idle it starts firing the same time #3 fires after 4-5 seconds. Witch is around 80-90 degrees btc. How do i check any of the ignition to pinpoint the problem?

 

[jhilton]

Re: 71 Johnson 60hp not running right?

Thanks for the help. I have given up, Ill just use it as best as it will work. when it dies i will have great joy in sinking it.

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: 71 Johnson 60hp not running right?

I think you are not getting answers because folks aren't sure and don't want to point you in the wrong direction.

The best advice that I can give you is to go get a service manual for this motor. Trying to fix it without one is like shooting blind.

 

[jhilton]

Re: 71 Johnson 60hp not running right?

I have a manual. But there is no reference to cross firing. I've been working on this motor for 1 month almost everyday, I can usually fix anything you put in front of me but this one little problem is really pissing me off. No joke I have almost gone threw 6 gallons of gas in the driveway. Feel free to think outloud on this one, Ill take any suggestions. I took it to the lake yesterday and lost the fuel in the filter after 1 hour or so, That must be an air leak because i could pump the bulb and it would immediatly drain the fuel back to the tank.

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: 71 Johnson 60hp not running right?

The problem that I have in trying to help you is that I know very little about the ignition system in your motor. I have a 1972 Johnson 65hp, but it has a completely different ignition system. That being the case, I will have to do some studying - I've been looking at the parts explosion of your motor at www.shop.evinrude.com & surfing on the net a little this evening, and may be more helpful in a few days.

One question, however - is your manual a original Johnson manual, or is it an aftermarket manual such as a Seloc manual? If its an aftermarket manual, I'm not surprised that it isn't telling you much. You need an OEM manual, so get one if that's not what you have.

I think the main issue is that you need to be able to do some real troubleshooting, rather than just guessing at parts and replacing them. If all you might end up replacing are the points and possibly the rotor, that wouldn't be the end of the world because both are relatively cheap (points and the rotor are available from BRP/OMC @ $65.00 & $55.99, respectively), but if you have to get into replacement of the distributor cap and/or amplifier, the money gets pretty ugly. The rotor cap is available from BRP/OMC for $245.58 and the amp is $337.40 from BRP/OMC, $217.73 from CDI, $232.54 from Mallory, and $251.54 from Sierra. I have no idea what the clipper aeemby does, but if you need one, it is available from BRP/OMC for $224.74.

I guess my point is that this could be a very expensive motor to try to fix by the "guess & replace method."

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: 71 Johnson 60hp not running right?

I'll keep posting as I find stuff - here's an interesting thread right here at iboats that you should read. Its in regard to a 1970 60 hp, but I believe that engine has the same ignition as your 1971.

F_R offered a couple of good troubleshooting tips and both he and someone else mentioned that, depending on what amp you have on your motor, you might not even need a clipper assembly. F_R also explains what it does.

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=251289


And another one:

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=268951


Here's something from another forum:

http://www.justanswer.com/questions/1cc5a-1972-60-hp-3-cylinder-johnson

 

[Tim Frank]

Re: 71 Johnson 60hp not running right?

Feel free to think outloud on this one, Ill take any suggestions.

You will get a more technical explanation from others in the forum, but for a "been there/done that/here are the scars" perspective I may be able to offer some insight.
I owned a 1968 Johnson 55 HP. for 35 years and have posted a few comments in other threads about that vintage and its foibles.
Those early Motorola ignitions were a quantum leap at the time for OMC and let's just say, were not foolproof....
Sparkplugs were an issue as mentioned often in threads. The advent of the gapped plugs was a huge advance.

At age ~ 25 years it started to have ongoing ignition problems and ate electronic components at an alarming and costly rate.
I finally tracked (with help) the root cause to deteriorating primary side wiring. As the Guru who advised me suggested, "if the basic wiring is not near-perfect, all these new fangled bits just flat-out ain't gonna work worth a d***. "
You can see a description of the problems that I had and what worked at :
http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=278595&highlight=BHP

 

[Tim Frank]

Re: 71 Johnson 60hp not running right?

Also, re: points....my advice would be if you have the flywheel off, by all means check the gap and then clean with alcohol....but there should be no reason to re-surface them. After 25 years I was all set to replace the points but noticed that the old ones were absolutely perfect...and the gap was still bang on 0.010". These do not operate in the same manner as standard magneto points ....or more accurately, they are not subject to the same electrical loads and thus do not exhibit the results of arcing/pitting etc.
If you do dress them, you will more likely cause them to operate less efficiently because you will not match the factory surface or finish.

The likelihood of any of your problems being related to the points is slim.

Keep looking for corrosion and deteriorated connections on the 12V side.

 

[iwombat]

Re: 71 Johnson 60hp not running right?

And, as mentioned before, use solid core plug wires and not the carbon-core automotive type. If it's prone to arcing in the distributor cap, those carbon-core wires are only going to make it worse.

 

[jhilton]

Re: 71 Johnson 60hp not running right?

I have cleaned the points 3 times with contact cleaner, and reset them each time to .010 or less on both. Ill try another set of plug wires soon. The stator is putting out 12.3 VDC past the rectifier That seems low to me is it low to you.

 

[Tim Frank]

Re: 71 Johnson 60hp not running right?

As mentioned in an earlier post, the OEM service manual has detailed specs for that type of question that is specific to your motor.
Your original post said :"it seems to be jumping the spark between wires, the #2 cylinder is running all the time, #1 seems to be firing at 36 degrees btc, #3 runs some times"
I am not necessarily disagreeing with your statement, but I have no idea how you would accurately determine that. I have never known an ignition troubleshooting sequence that started with the secondary system when there is a problem.
If you refer to the proper manual the primary side verification is almost always quick and logical, and in my experience usually where the trouble lies.

Your first post also said that you have "a new CDI ignition". My understanding is that the motor has a CDI ignition system (I think it stands for "capacitor discharge ignition") so did you change every component or just one or two? And if so, which ones?

Also, one other key place to check is the large connector in your electrical harness, just inside the motor. There are 10 or more pins and this is a frequent source of poor connections. Check the wiring insulation around that plug for deterioration or even complete failure.