77 Johnson 85hp carb question

[canuckmark]

Hello everyone...

I have a 1977 Johnson/Javelin 85hp O/B that has the typical first start issues. I've read numerous threads here which has given me a bunch of things to try, but there is one thing I don't quite understand. Many people say they have squirted fuel into the carbs which gets their engines going and I'd like to try this, but where exactly do I shoot the gas? I see the carbs and the cover on the back, just not a place where to spray gas directly to the carbs. And do you spray then start or spray while cranking?

I am very familiar with engines but new to outboards. Thanks for any help you guys can provide.

 

[TrueNorthist]

Re: 77 Johnson 85hp carb question

Did you take the front cover off of the intake plenum? Once off you can squirt a small amount of fuel (~1 tsp) right into each carb. It should be done with the engine off, then crank. For troubleshooting purposes only!

 

[canuckmark]

Re: 77 Johnson 85hp carb question

Sorry, by "back" should actually be "front". I did not take that cover off, will take a look tonight. I ask because I never read any mention of removing any covers before doing this. Thanks for your help!

And yes, I am hoping this is only a troubleshooting resort. But at least it would give me an idea where to start looking for the problem (nearly impossible to start cold/first time, runs/starts like a champ afterwards).

 

[emdsapmgr]

Re: 77 Johnson 85hp carb question

Yes, you'll have to remove the airbox cover to see the 4 throats of the carbs. When you have the cover off, check to see if the choke solenoid works. When the key is "on", push in on the key. That should activate the choke solenoid, closing the choke butterflys. Those engines just won't start unless the choke is operational.

 

[canuckmark]

Re: 77 Johnson 85hp carb question

Checked this all out last night forarmed with the suggestions in this thread (thanks muchly) and notes from searches. Popped the intake cover off so now I have a better understanding of the intake setup. I had read as well about the choke plates so did a check on that - they close quite tight with the solenoid. Did not check while starting though (not in the water) as I hear they may "flutter" while the starter is turning...I'll check that on the next test run.

The next thing is possibly turning/starter RPM. I've assumed that the motor has been turning fast enough with the battery I'm using but now not so sure - it is a 650CCA and that may not be enough from what i'm reading here. Next time out she should have new battery cables and a second battery in parallel.

Thanks again everyone. This forum truly is an outstanding resource especially for newbs like me.

 

[emdsapmgr]

Re: 77 Johnson 85hp carb question

FYI, that engine has to crank at around 250 rpm's in order to make voltage to fire the ignition. If it's a slow cranker, it may not make enough voltage.... The battery you have should easily start that engine. If it's in question, take it somewhere and have it load tested.

 

[canuckmark]

Re: 77 Johnson 85hp carb question

Did a major rewire today. New 4 gauge pair from the engine, relocated the batteries, bunch of other stuff. I also set up the main battery and a spare (both are marine starting batteries but only 550 and 650 CCA each) with a battery switch so I can switch the spare into the main circuit if needed. There was a noticeable difference in cranking speed with the second battery in circuit. Ran out of time to test the new setup but I hope to try it tomorrow.

I have heard two different things about the RPM, one (as you say) about the ignition not firing, the other that there isn't enough vacuum to get the fuel to the carbs when they are cold/empty. Can it be either or a combo of both? It would just seem that if it had to do with ignition that the engine would not start properly later in the day as well.

 

[emdsapmgr]

Re: 77 Johnson 85hp carb question

Always best to prime the fuel hose bulb when starting cold each day. That will fill the carbs for the first cold start. Once running, you probably won't have to reprime the fuel hose till the next cold start the next day.

 

[canuckmark]

Re: 77 Johnson 85hp carb question

The highest of the highs and the lowest of the lows...

Went to the launch on Sunday for a test fire with the new battery setup. Cranked fast, fired on the second try! Excellent! Warmed right up, all is good. Went home, 2 hours later the bride is off work and we decide to go out. This time no go - cranked and cranked with no fire. Finally gave up, went home and pulled the plugs (someone at the launch suggested this and I didn't have a wrench handy). She's flooded (and I do mean FLOODED) to the point where gas was dripping out the exhaust at the prop.

So here's a dumb newb question - is it possible that when launching if the motor is trimmed to far upright that gas from the full carbs can actually flow back into the cylinders due to the angle? That's the only thing I can think of that was different between the two launches (first time it was tilted up, second time it was fairly upright).

Funny thing is I used to be fine with the smell of gas, now it just smells like defeat.

 

[canuckmark]

Re: 77 Johnson 85hp carb question

PS squirting fuel in the carbs did not work for what now seems to be obvious reasons. I guess the short question is what am I doing wrong to flood this thing so badly?

 

[emdsapmgr]

Re: 77 Johnson 85hp carb question

Possible that you have no spark on any cyl. If you had spark on even one cyl, you'd hear a pop. Continued cranking will just flood the cyls more fuel.

 

[canuckmark]

Re: 77 Johnson 85hp carb question

OK, I will check that next. The installed plugs were not 100% correct (wrong heat range and gapped too small), so I have a new original recommended set of champions and will try them out tonight. I know I probably should have checked those before but the PO said they were new and good.

 

[canuckmark]

Re: 77 Johnson 85hp carb question

OK, so tonight was the big test. Bottom line... new properly gapped plugs + NO gas priming + motor tilted up until starting time + all the electrical improvements = success! She hit barely a second into the first crank. Even sounded way better and warmed up in no time. It's the first time we've got it properly up to speed too - on plane at 40KPH with probably another 1000RPM to spare. The lake was a bit choppy so I chickened out going faster save for a smoother day.

Found out one thing though - she turns from a fine wine sipper to a beer swillin' sailor on the gas when you lay the boot to it! But man she goes for an old tri hull.

Thanks again for all the help here guys...the positive encouragement is greatly appreciated.

 

[canuckmark]

Re: 77 Johnson 85hp carb question

Just a bit of an update on the starting issue, hopefully it will help someone else with the temperamental 70's Johnsons. The above success didn't last too long - next time out it did the same thing again. I've gone through every thread I can find and tried all suggestions with no consistent success. But the last two times I've been out have been starting with minimal putzing, and honestly I'm not sure what is different.

What I'm doing now is leaving the gas line disconnected at the motor until I get to the launch. Then it gets connected, very carefully squeeze until I feel gas in the bulb (to avoid flooding). Then instead of long cranks with the key, very short "blips" no longer than 1/2 to 1 second with a second or so between. Varying the start lever between tries from full up to pretty much off, but usually in the 1/2 to 3/4 starting area. Sometimes with choke, a few times without. Eventually I'll hear that "I wanna go" sound, then start lever up to 3/4 to full and away it goes. This takes less than a minute. Somewhere in that procedure is something the motor likes, but the short blips of starter seems to be the center of it.

All I know from the little experience I've gained so far is flooding has been a big issue, and when doing it this way I haven't smelled gas yet.

 

[emdsapmgr]

Re: 77 Johnson 85hp carb question

My daughter's 1979 85 hp engine is very sensitive to the choke. Seems that I barely need to activate it and it floods. So, just a little choke when cold, and it's up an running. You did not mention raising the cold-start lever on the control box. This slightly opens the carb butterflys and lets is extra air. A good thing when you are choking it. Plus keeps the engine idling above normal for a minute or two till it warms up.

 

[canuckmark]

Re: 77 Johnson 85hp carb question

Actually in the second paragraph I was mentioned the start lever, I guess cold start lever is a more accurate description. Yes, flooding is way too easy to do. Interesting that you say using a lot of choke contributes to that - you got me thinking about it and it seems most times it has kicked over has been when the choke has NOT been pushed in. It is what happened last night. Which is contrary to a lot of the threads say about needing the choke plates closed tight.

I did miss the one point you made higher up in the thread about continued cranking flooding it - I finally put 2 and 2 together to understand that. Thanks so much for your help along the way here. If I don't learn something new every day from life, I sure do from this motor!

 

[TrueNorthist]

Re: 77 Johnson 85hp carb question

It may be that the carbs are out of sync or the float level is incorrect in one or more of them, but it is true that choking can sometimes flood an engine pdq. The fact that priming the fuel line is flooding the engine tells me a needle isn't seating properly and fuel is pouring into that intake. The primer bulb should firm right up solid fairly quickly. If it feels mushy a float needle is likely an issue.

 

[laotou]

Re: 77 Johnson 85hp carb question

What I'm doing now is leaving the gas line disconnected at the motor until I get to the launch. Then it gets connected, very carefully squeeze until I feel gas in the bulb (to avoid flooding). Then instead of long cranks with the key, very short "blips" no longer than 1/2 to 1 second with a second or so between. Varying the start lever between tries from full up to pretty much off, but usually in the 1/2 to 3/4 starting area. Sometimes with choke, a few times without. Eventually I'll hear that "I wanna go" sound, then start lever up to 3/4 to full and away it goes. This takes less than a minute. Somewhere in that procedure is something the motor likes, but the short blips of starter seems to be the center of it.

My 76 85HP engine can get flooded easily. If I cannot fire the engine up in the first 5 tries, I need to replace the spark plugs with another set of dry ones. I always bring an extra set of dry spark plugs and a wrench with me when I go boating.

When I was a new boater, I spent a lot of time to learn how to start my engine. In my case, the warm-up lever does not work properly. There is too much play in the cable. I have to take the cone off, raise the warm-up lever, manually push the throttle cam to align upper embossed mark with center of throttle cam roller. Put the cone back. Press the bulb to firm and hold it with one hand. Raise the choke switch and turn the key. I do the short cranks. When the engine starts, lower the warm-up lever. Without pushing the throttle cam to the correct position, my engine will not start. This is my procedure. I know my engine is not at top shape. I live with it.

You need to find the sweet spot of your engine.

 

[canuckmark]

Re: 77 Johnson 85hp carb question

Truenorthist, after reading your info I'm not sure now how much the primer bulb has to do with it especially after the last few outings. I figured it was causing the flooding but the bulb did go hard as you described, so the flooding may have been unrelated. I was thinking the same as you (that the fuel was flooding past the needles into the intake).

laotou, that all sounds so familiar! You've pretty much described my deal to a T. Thanks for the tip on the throttle cam, I'll look at that the next time I go out. Couldn't agree more about finding the sweet spot - the last few times have been somewhat successful. We are knee deep in cottage country up here, so getting it started fairly quickly is essential considering the near fist fights to be first at the launch on the busy days.

I swear this engine has ESP too...seems like whenever I'm in a hurry or stressing whether it will start then there won't be a snowball's chance.