87 Sea Ray 270 w/twin 4.3 (185HP) - the infamous best prop selection question LOL

bsl43

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May 25, 2011
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Hi,

The bottom line question is the boat is hard to bring onto plane without reaching WOT to do so so is there a better prop out there for me. The details:

I have a 1987 Sea Ray 270 Sundancer (she has a 10' beam and ~31' LOA).
Twin 4.3L Mercruisers V6 (Rated 185-205HP (I give the range because I think the engines in the boat are 1988 reman's (which have a 205 instead of the original 185 from the 87 engines) with Alpha 1 outdrives.
Present Props (both standard rotation) 14.5" x 20" pitch 4 blade aluminum both
WOT 4500 RPM which is in the 4400-4600 Range listed for both those engines.
Boat dry weight full fuel is 6600#, with 2-4 people ~7000-7200# full.
Boat achieves WOT on plane with a top speed of around 32kts by GPS.
Cruise at around 3600RPM at 22-26kts by GPS depending on seas.
So everything seems good right? EXCEPT she takes a long time to plane and has what I would judge to be a signficiant rise before plane (I don't have a degree measurement but will try to get one this weekend) and once on plane if I drop throttle below 3600RPM or so, she falls off plane very quickly. Is there a better prop out there that may still allow me to maintain WOT but get me on plane quicker?

Thanks All for the answers to come :)
Brian
 

Art Bernard

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May 4, 2011
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Re: 87 Sea Ray 270 w/twin 4.3 (185HP) - the infamous best prop selection question LOL

PROPS
Having had prop issues myself and seeing that prop issues are common questions here, I decided to educate myself about them. The information here is based on research I have done, but mostly on a conversation with technicians at Marine Wheels, a local, professional prop shop (not one guy with a torch) here in Panama City Fl. This is not ment as an advertisement for them, but I simply wish to convey where I got my information from.

Prop sizing
Props are measured with 2 dimensions and are shown like this- 15 x 15.
The first number is the diameter of the prop and the second number is the pitch, or degree of angle, of the blades. So, the 15 x 15 prop is 15" in diameter and has 15 degrees of pitch relative to the props main body. You can find this number on the prop. Usually it is stamped into the main body of the prop at it's rear, or if not there, it can also be found occasionaly on the washer beneth the prop nut. If it can't be found in either location you can try to find the MFG part number and contact the MFG to get the size. If no numbers at all can be found than you will have to take it to a prop shop to get sized.

Effects of pitch on speed, power, and RPM
The pitch of your prop directly influences speed, power (hole shot), and your engine's RPM. Your engine has a specified RPM range stated by your engine's MFG. When running your engine at WOT (wide open throttle) you want to be within this range otherwise damage to your engine could occur. Let's take a look at how differant pitched props effect your boat. Basically, the more pitch you have the more power (hole shot) you have and your RPM's will drop due to your engine having to work harder to turn the prop. You will also loose some top speed (approx 3-5MPH per change in pitch). The less pitch you have, the less power (hole shot) you will have and the longer it will take to get on plane. Your RPM's will increase and you will gain some top speed (approx 3-5MPH per change in pitch).

Other factors effecting speed, power and RPM's
Other factors besides the prop have an effect on your boats performance. Weight of your loaded boat, distribution of the weight, shape of your boats hull all impact the boats performance. You can change the weight of your boat making it heavier or lighter and you can move weight around your boat affecting performance. You can't really do much as far as the shape or type of hull you have though trim tabs mounted to the transome and "Whales Tails or Dolphins Tails" mounted to the ventilation plate on the engine have a pronounced effect.

What's a pitch worth?
One degree of pitch is worth approx 500 RPM. So lets say you have a 15 x 15 prop and you increase the pitch to 17. The effect to your boat would be something allong the lines of an decrease of RPM's of about 1000 and a loss in speed of approx 6-10MPH and you would gain power (hole shot). If you decreased the pitch to 13 you would gain approx 1000 RPM and gain approx 6-10MPH, but you would lose power (hole shot) and it will take your longer to get on plane though you will have a higher top speed.

Cup. What is it and what's it worth
If you look at your prop blades and than look at the end of the blade you may notice that it seams to be bent a bit more than the pitch of your blades. This is called the cup. A cup is worth approx 250RPM and is used to tweek a blade to a more exact performance. You can have cup added, but you cannot have negative cup. It also effects the props "grip" on the water during a turn. A prop with no cup is more likely to cavatate, or "vent" in a high speed turn than a prop with cup. Cup has implications for creaping up on better performance as stated above and watersports where you make high speed turns (racing, pulling skiers, etc...).

Choosing the "Right" prop
Selecting the best prop for your boat depends on how you use your boat and how you want it to perform on the water. If your using your boat for watersports than you will likely want a prop that gives you a great holeshot and good turning performance (generally a "power" prop with higher pitch and cup but less RPM's yet still allows you to maintain good speed for pulling skiers, etc.... If your into top speed you will want a prop with less pitch and cup or no cup depending on how you use the boat and higher RPM's. Getting the "best prop" is often a trial and error process. If you will notice I use the word approx allot in this. Prop selection is not an exact science since there are many variables that effect boat performance. When choosing a prop, I suggest you select one that you feel will get you close to where you want to be and than have it "worked" by a prop shop to better close in on where you want to be. Many boaters choose to have more than one prop to better tailor their boats performance to what they are doing (a power prop for pulling skiers and a speed prop for top speed). Many try to find a prop size that will give them good performance overall. Carrying a spare prop on your boat is highly recomended. NOTE- A brand new cast prop and a worked on prop will not be or perform exactly the same.

Diameter
According to the research I've done a change of 1" in diameter up or down has little to no effect on the performance of the prop.

How many blades should I run?
Props come in 2, 3, or 4 bladed styles. Props with 2 blades are used on smaller engines and 3 or 4 bladed props are used on large engines. Vibration and balance are a concern and vibration decreses as you add more blades. 4 bladed props are mostly used in watersports applications as they provide a great holeshot, but not great top speed.

Prop Material
There is allot of discussion about this. Stainless Steel props are more consistant, provide better performance and withstand corrosion better, but cost allot more than aluminum props. There is also a concern that if you strike an underwater object the stainlees prop will transfer the energy of the strike and will be more likely to trash your lower unit. Aluminum props are seen as good performance, good price, and less likely to trash your lower incase of a strike. The new composite props are still to new and people are too divided to really give a recomendation one way or the other.

Prop Instalation
When installing a prop you should enshure that the shaft is clean and free of debris. Lightly coat the shaft with a marine grade greese, slide the thrust washer down, slide the prop down enshuring to line up the splines, install the top washer making sure to line up the splines, thread the propnut till it makes contact with the top washer and hand tighten snugly, than install the cotterpin in the hole in the shaft above the propnut. There should be little to no play in the prop (sliding fore and aft). Excessive play indicates a poor fitting prop or you forgot a washer and can damage the propshaft and propnut.

Conclusion
I hope this information has answered any questions and helped guide you in prop selection. Again, I reiterate, prop selection is not an exact science so all numbers given are approximate.


Art
 

bsl43

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Re: 87 Sea Ray 270 w/twin 4.3 (185HP) - the infamous best prop selection question LOL

Art,

Thanks for the details. You're right it's not an exact science. I tried a handful of props a couple of years ago from 14x17 stainless 3 up the the 15x21 before settling on the 14.5x20 4 blade that I've been using for the last 2 years. As I understand it, to get on plane quicker (hole shot power) I would need to add pitch, but I know that adding 1 degree of pitch will put my WOT at at least 500RPM less than MFG recommendations so that is not an option, without also dropping the blade count to 3 (which if I understand would also be counterproductive).

I guess the information I'm looking for would be related to someone with a similar boat (weight, mfg, engines, outdrives) and what they have found to be the characteristics of the prop that they have so that I can compare without having to pay $300/short haul just to change props (even in trailer position, they are under the water by a good 4-6" so I can't replace them waterborne).

Thanks Again
Brian
 
Joined
Mar 10, 2011
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Re: 87 Sea Ray 270 w/twin 4.3 (185HP) - the infamous best prop selection question LOL

Do you use your trim tabs to get on plane? What if you enlarged them?

Might want to check out clubsearay.com I know that there are several guys with your boat on there.
 

bsl43

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Re: 87 Sea Ray 270 w/twin 4.3 (185HP) - the infamous best prop selection question LOL

Thanks Big Island Lifer:

I'll post it over there as well. To answer your question, no I don't use the trim tabs to get on plane I guess primarily because they seem to slow the boat down. I will give that a try this weekend as well. Don't know why I didn't think of that - I just use them to trim port/starboard.

B
 

craze1cars

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Dec 26, 2004
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Re: 87 Sea Ray 270 w/twin 4.3 (185HP) - the infamous best prop selection question LOL

Ahhh....

Yes, that's what the trim tabs are for. At takeoff you should be trim full down, tabs full down. That will all help lift th stern up out of the water and minimize plowing, plus minimize your planing speed. Then after it planes out you can start running both up and experiment...basically strive for max speed at any given RPM....and that is the position you need the trim and tabs to be at when you are under way because whatever setting that is will get you max efficiency. But for take-off and for below planing speed, generically speaking you'll want the tabs and trim both all the way down/in to help lift that stern.

I ahve no prop suggestions for you. Frankly to me you sound pretty well propped...you just have a very heavy boat for the HP you are running.
 

bsl43

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May 25, 2011
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Re: 87 Sea Ray 270 w/twin 4.3 (185HP) - the infamous best prop selection question LOL

Thanks craze1cars: The only reason I hesitate on the tabs is I don't have an indicator - so I can't tell where they are relative to where I started, but I'll try full down at start and see what happens.
 

craze1cars

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Dec 26, 2004
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Re: 87 Sea Ray 270 w/twin 4.3 (185HP) - the infamous best prop selection question LOL

Yes, tabs without indicators can be a real challenge. I regularly drive a friend's boat that is set up like that. You really have no option but to go by feel...but as a tip, we've found it is nice to know roughly how long it takes to bring tabs from full down (most likely best for take-off) to flat with the hull (most likely best for after you are planed). While docked or floating you can put them in full down position, then watch while a helper pushes the button, and you count how many seconds it takes to make the sweep....one one thousand, two one thousand, three one thousand... Does it take 3 seconds? 8 seconds? Just make a mental note to yourself of the length of time.

And armed that info you now can count silently to yourself, after you get underway and hit the buttons to start running the tabs up, and by counting you'll have a pretty good idea how far you have just moved the tabs. It's not perfect, but may be helpful.
 
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