"A new birth for freedom" ????

kd6nem

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Mr. Kerry sure knows how to use some nice patriotic words doesn't he? Only problem is he doesn't mean the same thing as most people when he uses them! His voting record in the senate conclusively proves that.<br /><br />How can a "new birth for freedom" possibly be construed to be more government, more taxes, take away our guns, allow the unborn to be murdered, interfere with parent's rights and responsibilities, taking over individuals personal choices, etc. (the whole platform of the liberal agenda)???<br /><br />He knows nothing of freedom if he can be for the socializing of our fair country! The founding fathers understood freedom, as do the vast majority of our vets who faced combat. Mr. Kerry has no clue of the implications of his beliefs. Or does he?
 

achris

More fish than mountain goat
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Re: "A new birth for freedom" ????

Sorry Bearcat. Welcome to the 'Brave New World'! America isn't the only country facing these 'bleeding-heart', lefty, commies. Around the end of the year we (Australia) will be asked to vote on the same issues. We currently have a 'conservative' government (I think it's similar to your 'Republicans') and they have pulled the country (to a degree) out of foreign debt, left by the previous lefties. I am thoroughly dis-enchanted with all flavours of politics and would be happy to see anachy. Couldn't really be too much worse than we already have.<br /><br />Chris............
 

kd6nem

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Re: "A new birth for freedom" ????

Achris,<br />It does seem that most anywhere you go politics is a dirty, messy business. At least we can still point out the dirt when we see it, not that enough will happen as a result.<br /><br />However disenchanted with the mess we have, I still have grave concern about open anarchy. (I'd be OK, but everyone else probably couldn't handle it! ;) ) We'd go from over-controlled (but way too little self-control) to self-destruct in 10 seconds flat. Way too many folks with no regard for others for it to work. If personal responsibility was not in such short supply it might make a thrilling experiment.
 

achris

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Re: "A new birth for freedom" ????

Bear,<br /><br />I think you've got it pretty much nailed. I was once told that the quickest way to "fix" the world's problems would be if everybody took responsibility for their own actions. Seems to me the world is moving to allow people to blame others for their actions. <br /><br />Chris...........
 

Bassy

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Re: "A new birth for freedom" ????

I was once told that the quickest way to "fix" the world's problems would be if everybody took responsibility for their own actions. Seems to me the world is moving to allow people to blame others for their actions. <br />
Now Chris, that is exactly what I'm seeing. Right on Buddy! I like to see my thoughts in someone elses printing. Tells me its not my imagination.<br />When will everyone take responsibility for their own actions? and "moving to allow people to blame others?" Heck, its already there. Right here in the world I live in. Maddening as heck! :mad: <br />Bassy
 

12Footer

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Re: "A new birth for freedom" ????

Don't hold back BP. lol. <br />Amen, bro! But keep in mind, he is usually reading copy, just as all the rest. For that reason, look for a huge bounce in the polls for Bush after the debate.<br />And Chris, that is what we conservative types aspire to (being grown-ups). Sometimes, I fall short of that goal, but it is a goal.
 

achris

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Re: "A new birth for freedom" ????

12FOOTER,<br /><br />You're right of course. We had an excellent example of the state taking responsibility for people. It was called the USSR. Have a look at it now! The communist experiment didn't work. I am not saying the current capitalist/democratic model is perfect, far from it. But it is the better of the 2. We (the world's population) just have to realize that if you do something YOU are responsible for the outcome. If YOU buy hot coffee and spill it in your lap, get over it! Don't go crying off to the courts and ask for a million bucks. In part (a large part) I blame the judges for not kicking these types of cases out! And I blame the lawyers (read "money hungry leeches") for taking these types of cases to the courts. One of the best programs on the TV that showed us the right side of equality was "Becker". For all his bad traits he did treat everybody the same, and he pushed that people took responsibility. <br /><br />I have a problem at my local boat club of which I am a member. I want to run some 'small boat coastal navigation' courses. I can't because the club isn't insured if someone who goes on the course gets themselves lost decides to sue the club! Is that stupid or what?!?!?<br /><br />Can I get off the soapbox now, dad?<br /><br />Chris............
 

mrbscott19

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Re: "A new birth for freedom" ????

Originally posted by Bearcat Powered:<br /> Mr. Kerry sure knows how to use some nice patriotic words doesn't he? Only problem is he doesn't mean the same thing as most people when he uses them! His voting record in the senate conclusively proves that.<br /><br />How can a "new birth for freedom" possibly be construed to be more government, more taxes, take away our guns, allow the unborn to be murdered, interfere with parent's rights and responsibilities, taking over individuals personal choices, etc. (the whole platform of the liberal agenda)???<br /><br />He knows nothing of freedom if he can be for the socializing of our fair country! The founding fathers understood freedom, as do the vast majority of our vets who faced combat. Mr. Kerry has no clue of the implications of his beliefs. Or does he?
what personal choices is he trying to take over?
 

kd6nem

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Re: "A new birth for freedom" ????

The gradual socialialization of our country engineered by the left has taken much freedom and many personal choices away. Gun rights have been dangerously erroded, how to spend the money I earned (can't spend it if taken away for taxes!), expression of faith is now commonly thought to be illegal in public in schools, courthouses, and most other gov't facilities (which is totally anti-constitutional if anyone cares to read the first amendment), the freedom of ALL unborn Americans to live, and a MULTITUDE of laws and restrictions governing nearly every aspect of our lives. Some laws are very necessary, but many wind up being a burden upon the people. The list could be extremely lengthy if I cared to get specific. At this time I don't care to, my point is already well illustrated. It is not hard to see that the more laws and regulations that govern us, the fewer choices we have left to make for ourselves. It is a ridiculous notion that we need so very many laws. It should still be about personal responsibility instead. Why is it with all the laws we have that so many break those laws so freely? People no longer respect the laws because they are way too many, and they are not enforced very well by the judiciary. Over-legislation does not make up for judicial failure. It only multiplies the problem. Criminals should SWIFTLY get their due punishment, and enforcement should be universal and fair across the board. More laws do not accomplish this. We need to expect the best of people in order to get their best. Lets give Americans back their freedom to do right without the burden of excessive laws! Our economy would really get a major boost if tort reform was enacted and people could get back to the business of being productive instead of having to wade their way through the maze of regulatory hash everyday.
 

Boomyal

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Re: "A new birth for freedom" ????

Originally posted by achris:<br /> 12FOOTER,<br /><br />I have a problem at my local boat club of which I am a member. I want to run some 'small boat coastal navigation' courses. I can't because the club isn't insured if someone who goes on the course gets themselves lost decides to sue the club! Is that stupid or what?!?!?
Although this liability threat is, no doubt, a signifigant issue, I think that it, often times, just gets used as a convenient excuse.
 

12Footer

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Re: "A new birth for freedom" ????

That's a shame about the coarse. A nice PenYann blew up and sunk, with it's skipper at the helm, in it's slip where I werk. He got burned pretty badly,and dislocated his shoulder.<br />Perhaps it could have been pervented with some basic safety coarses by the club here. The president of the local yacht club asked for the video I took of the conflagration, to show the hazards of starting an inboard without venting first. But i'm not releasing it yet (without the boat owner's permission).
 

mrbscott19

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Re: "A new birth for freedom" ????

Originally posted by Bearcat Powered:<br /> The gradual socialialization of our country engineered by the left has taken much freedom and many personal choices away. Gun rights have been dangerously erroded, how to spend the money I earned (can't spend it if taken away for taxes!), expression of faith is now commonly thought to be illegal in public in schools, courthouses, and most other gov't facilities (which is totally anti-constitutional if anyone cares to read the first amendment), the freedom of ALL unborn Americans to live, and a MULTITUDE of laws and restrictions governing nearly every aspect of our lives. Some laws are very necessary, but many wind up being a burden upon the people. The list could be extremely lengthy if I cared to get specific. At this time I don't care to, my point is already well illustrated. It is not hard to see that the more laws and regulations that govern us, the fewer choices we have left to make for ourselves. It is a ridiculous notion that we need so very many laws. It should still be about personal responsibility instead. Why is it with all the laws we have that so many break those laws so freely? People no longer respect the laws because they are way too many, and they are not enforced very well by the judiciary. Over-legislation does not make up for judicial failure. It only multiplies the problem. Criminals should SWIFTLY get their due punishment, and enforcement should be universal and fair across the board. More laws do not accomplish this. We need to expect the best of people in order to get their best. Lets give Americans back their freedom to do right without the burden of excessive laws! Our economy would really get a major boost if tort reform was enacted and people could get back to the business of being productive instead of having to wade their way through the maze of regulatory hash everyday.
The freedom of all unborn Americans to live? What about the freedom of choice? Thats the one thing that really ticks me off about the right. You ***** and moan about your taxes being taken for welfare programs to help these families with 5 kids where the parents don't work, because they had to drop out of school to take care of their kids, yet you want to take away one of the few realistic ways to deal with it. Accidents happen. Condoms and birth control don't always work, and abstinence is a joke to 99% of the population. I don't think abortion should be a regular form of birth control by any means, but what do you expect to happen when some 16 year old girl has to drop out of high school to take care of her baby, forfeiting her education. Now she is an uneducated, teenage mother who has absolutely nothing to contribute to an economic world. How do you expect her to live without some kind of outside help? How do you expect her to contribute to society? You have just created the drain on the economy that you so despise. The freedom of choice should never be taken from us, regardless of the issue.<br /><br />Now back to the real issue...<br /><br />Last time I checked, it wasn't just the left that made up the legislative branch. Both sides write the laws. I also have a problem with my freedoms being stomped on. But it isn't just the left like you make it out to be. I am of the belief that I should be able to do anything I want with my possessions and/or body as long as it doesn't hurt or affect anyone else. Do you believe that to be true? And if not, why? The right has taken away many freedoms also and are attempting to take away even more right now. The blame for this doesn't lie with any particular party, but with government in general. They will keep taking liberties until we, the people, say we've had enough, and thats just not gonna happen anytime soon. If you really are worried about the intrusion of government on your rights, you should read up on the Patriot Act II. The first one was bad enough. This one is much worse.
 

kd6nem

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Re: "A new birth for freedom" ????

I do not deny that republicans also have been too often guilty of over regulating and reducing our freedoms. As I have stated before, the leftward creep over the past century has affected both parties. I do not necessarily equate republicans with being conservative. Nor do I strive to redefine what conservative means as many seem to try these days. I just use what it correctly meant before it began to progressively be redefined when relativism got involved (wholesale, anyway) as a means to manipulate toward selfish interests. Honestly, the problem lies much deeper than politics. It lies in man's ability to look out for his own (perceived) interests much better than his neighbor's- aka selfishness. We all have this affliction to some degree. Not everyone is ruled by it in whatever form it takes in them, although many are. Especially in politics. Honest conservatives in politics by definition will be both reluctant and careful in enacting more rules for us to have to live by, and more careful in spending the public's money. I do not offer any apology for those who sell us out. But if you look at legislation over the past 50 years or more you will see that the democratic party was the last party to become concerned with the deficit, and remains less concerned despite all their talk. They have also been the most eager to enact all sorts of broad reaching programs which ultimately did nothing to encourage individuals to take long term resposibility for themselves. It is the liberal ideology which I find repugnant and ultimately damaging. It is not a simple matter of which political party.<br /><br />I support educational and training programs which help people get off government assistance and back into productivity. I support day care for young single moms so they can get their education and start work. I encourage anything which encourages long term responsibility. The short term cost of this sort of thing is neglible compared to the long term addiction to welfare for otherwise able bodied citizens. Any individual's self esteem will grow immeasurably when they see that they can pull their own weight. I have seen several success stories along these lines. It is a good thing and extremely worthwhile.<br /><br />Your "abstinence is a joke to 99% of the population" statement is overstated, although your point is taken. Why is this a joke? Selfishness. Irresponsibility has become a societal norm. Why? It has been allowed. It is apathy. Because parents allow it and because the government, media, and educational system have accepted it as normal and expected. Because immoral boys and men decide s*x will be fun but feel they won't have to pay any consequence. (Almost true, unfortunately. But society pays their "bill" for them.) Some girls sometimes saw pregnancy as a status symbol of sorts, allowing them to draw welfare. Other girls simply saw giving in as a way to get attention and companionship. Bad choices are still bad choices, though. Generations went by living the same way, enabled by an idea intended to be compassionate but in reality enslaving way to many. For many, perhaps most, others pregnancy was simply an unintended accident because of careless behavior. Those resulting children who managed to grow up in loving homes had it better. Those who did not sufferred because of their parents lack of responsibility. Not anyone else's fault, it was the parents. Could have been prevented. All it takes is sensible, reasonable behavior. Billions have found this to be possible, by the way. To those who made mistakes: welcome to the club! I'm not perfect either! I cast no stones. I just encourage you do do the best you can with what you have to work with. To those who have not made life changing mistakes yet: Just because "everyone is doing it" (vastly overstated, statistically, by the way), it doesn't mean you have to. If you want to roll the dice, you'll have to pay the price.<br /><br />"Freedom to choose"? There have never been any moral grounds for this so-called right. It is not any more a moral right than taking any other life. I support prevention by abstinence until marriage. As I've said above, it has worked for billions already. No reason it can't continue to work. It is not that hard a choice. I've felt the temptation and had opportunity. I proved it is possible to wait. I don't condemn anyone if they don't, but why play with fire? When someone makes a mistake and gets pregnant, I support non-governmental help. I have put my money where my mouth is regarding this several times. For many, adoption is a very workable solution. If it was my daughter her child would be taken care of without any government funds, I assure you! There are a number of non-profit organizations and churches available to help, though not nearly as many as there should be I admit. Of course, many just won't go there to ask for some reason. There are several much better options than killing a child for convenience sake because of one night's irresponsibility! Unplanned pregnancy is never an easy thing in any way, but good things can result if decisions are not made rashly. It certainly helps when there are caring people supporting, encouraging, and demonstrating love to the expecting mom. Hopefully this will be in the form of family, but even if not there are others who will step in if asked. Some of my kids best friends are those who were not planned by young moms. Fact is I was quite a surprise when I came along, though fortunately my parents were married and remained that way until my Dad died a few years back. But whatever the situation, the unborn deserve to live and be loved. No one's else's rights (wish for convenience) are greater than this. Period.
 

mrbscott19

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Re: "A new birth for freedom" ????

Very good post Bearcat. So do you think abortion has no place at all anywhere, or are there certain circumstances that you think it would be permissable? The two biggest examples of this would be either rape or incest resulting in pregnancy. Both happen. What about mothers with AIDS? Is it really fair to bring a child into this world knowing full well that the child will have aids from birth, along with all the complications of AIDS, and therefore have a life expectancy of 2-5 years? To me, bringing a child into this world under those circumstances knowingly is worse than an abortion. You're dooming that child to a horrible, disease filled life before it is even born. I'd rather my child not know life than to be doomed to a slow, painful death.
 

Skinnywater

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Re: "A new birth for freedom" ????

Very good Bearcat.<br /><br />mrscott, I'll not impose my morals on someone who wants an abortion. However, I'll want the same respect back that my taxes aren't used for it. That would be a moral imposition on me.<br />Doublely so since it became law that a minor child has the right to abort without parental consent.<br />The village has now seemed fit to remove all morality and judgement from the parents. As well as the option for a parent to raise thier own grandchild.<br />Actually the freedom of choice, really boils down to one choice. <br />And the killing of a fetus is the most important choice of all. Even above all other rights.<br />The pro choice have all this, and they want it all.<br />Hardly a group that is exibiting sound judgement, respect for life, and others.
 

mrbscott19

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Re: "A new birth for freedom" ????

I agree that nobodies tax dollars should ever be spent for an abortion, EVER. I also agree that minors should not be making most life changing decisions, but in this case, I'd say they should have the choice, not their parents. The parents have no legal obligation to that baby. They're not responsible for that baby, so why should they get to choose? Just as parents make choices for their kids because they are the parents, would be parents should have that same decision making right.
 

12Footer

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Re: "A new birth for freedom" ????

God is good, babies are good and Bush is good.
 

kd6nem

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Re: "A new birth for freedom" ????

MY personal thought about abortion- it is not consistent to make some excuses for why it might be justified in some cases rather than others. If it is wrong then it is wrong. Many things in life are not easy, unfair even. Unwanted pregnancy is not easy, especially when the woman was not a willing participant. This is where family, friends, and church need to come out of the woodwork to support and encourage the mom to be long term. The old argument about the mother will die if she doesn't have the abortion certainly holds no water nowadays, not that ever really did. It was a contrived notion to begin with. How can we say a child will not know life until they are born? They react to stimulus in-utero early on. They respond to their mother's voice. They feel pain and react if disturbed. This is very clear in sonograms and I believe with EEG's. Hardly anyone in science says the baby is not alive until after it leaves the womb. I must then conclude that life begins at conception. No, I don't see any valid reason for abortion. Agree or disagree, at least I'm trying to be consistent.<br /><br />Parents of the teen should have no say? Even if they will be responsible to raise the child or otherwise provide for him/her? I think it should be the norm for parents to stand with their teens in being responsible for the baby. Lets be consistent here. Why not just abolish ALL parental authority if we defer to the teen for THIS decision? And while we're at it abolish ALL authority! Anarchy would be fun (for the first ten minutes or so). Teens do not understand enough about life or the implications of their actions yet. That is why they still need parents. Certainly this situation would be no less needful of parental support and encouragement. The consequences could haunt them for the rest of their life. I know several women who regret their abortions. I don't personally know any who 20 years later were proud of having one. Or of their irresponsible behavior that got them that way. I know some who have had their kid adopted with no regrets. I also know of some who raised their child and it worked out very well. Don't know of any negative outcomes for those letting the baby live. <br /><br />Having a strong family/church support network can make a big difference. For those without the close friends family network it will be more difficult, although there are church and other networks available for all sorts of help and encouragement. I see no room for comdemnation or castigation when a scared teen presents herself as pregnant. That is more than ever a time for showing love and support in many ways- including material ways. God tells us to hate the sin but love the sinner. Pretty good advice, since no one is perfect. <br /><br />By the way, it takes two to conceive a child. What if the male decides to take genuine responsibility for the child? Has he no parental rights? <br /><br />Abortion is all about cheapening the value of life for the sake of mere convenience. It is time to grow up and take responsibility for one's actions. Better yet, be responsible enough to not have any possibility of pregnancy or STD's. Only sure way I know is abstinence. An ounce of prevention....<br /><br />HIV? That is a tough one. But did you realize many healthy, uninfected babies are born to HIV positive mothers? How many uninfected babies is it OK to kill in the process? WHO has the authority to say ANY life should be terminated just because? Surely no human. I'm not current on this, but I suspect the 2 to 5 year figure may be on the short side these days. Regardless, we all get to experience some suffering and misery in life. Some more than others. I've lost two friends that I know of to AIDS, and while they did experience suffering it was not endless years of it. One I got to know as a patient from one of the clinics I worked in. He was a decent guy. He was gay but also at the same time caring about us as caregivers. He was open about his condition, unlike many hostile, militant gays. I had to respect him for this. I saw him in his hospital room a couple days before he died. It was still a tragedy, but he did seem to understand that it was a matter of his choices. He didn't blame anyone else. Same with my other friend. It was preventable, but they finally understood that the price for their actions was theirs alone to be paid. No one wished it upon them. No one was happy to see them gravely ill or die. It is simply what can happen when we do things that are unwise. Too often the consequences are considered only after they force themself upon us as a result of our irresponsibility. Parent's job is to help kids learn how this works in a more controlled environment so they can learn for themselves without hurting themselves or others too much. Parents need to parent, and kids need to pay attention. The time to consider the consequences is BEFORE the action. THIS is responsibility and maturity. The only time I would support over-ruling a parent for the teen's wishes is if the parent wanted the kid to get the abortion but the kid wanted to not harm the unborn child. Preserving life outweighs all other considerations, in my opinion.
 
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