Advice on 470 Please.

[Rake722]

Hi forum,

I just got me a Draco 1800 ST 1981 build with a 470 fitted as the powerhouse.

The engine has had some mods -

Alternator replaced with aftermarket
No V. Reg in water anymore
Stock Distributor
New uprated Coil
Allegedly rebuilt last year with new gimble bearings and bellows etc.

She has no power steering pump and is on teleflex.

Starter motor already out as shorting due to failed insulation on positive binding post.

What I need to know is what checks to make on this engine before taking her to sea ?

I have read all about the legendary 470 issues and would like to negate them before they happen. Please no smart remarks - I'm in already and cant go back. I have seen so many - should have bought a .... In my case I was mis sold the boat as the seller declared a 140 3.0 when in fact its a 470. :facepalm:

If anyone could list and give a little detail as this is my first venture into power boat and don't want to end up saying I should have bought a caravan !

Many thanks in advance.

Ron.

 

[fmalott]

Re: Advice on 470 Please.

Hi forum,

I just got me a Draco 1800 ST 1981 build with a 470 fitted as the powerhouse.

The engine has had some mods -

Alternator replaced with aftermarket
No V. Reg in water anymore
Stock Distributor
New uprated Coil
Allegedly rebuilt last year with new gimble bearings and bellows etc.

She has no power steering pump and is on teleflex.

Starter motor already out as shorting due to failed insulation on positive binding post.

What I need to know is what checks to make on this engine before taking her to sea ?

I have read all about the legendary 470 issues and would like to negate them before they happen. Please no smart remarks - I'm in already and cant go back. I have seen so many - should have bought a .... In my case I was mis sold the boat as the seller declared a 140 3.0 when in fact its a 470. :facepalm:

If anyone could list and give a little detail as this is my first venture into power boat and don't want to end up saying I should have bought a caravan !

Many thanks in advance.

Ron.

i just rebuilt my 470, the best thing for you to do is check the compression it's the number 4 cylinder you want to watch. my 470 before rebuild first three cylinders 150 number 4 130 which told me head gasket needs to be replaced and the head machined so watch for this. also for the cam seals if there not leaking don't worry till they do. you already took the step to convert to alternator i also recommend taking the points out and convert to electronic ignition. if you can aford it convert to a 4" heat exchanger . i would also change the impeller and housing
'

 

[Rake722]

Re: Advice on 470 Please.

i just rebuilt my 470, the best thing for you to do is check the compression it's the number 4 cylinder you want to watch. my 470 before rebuild first three cylinders 150 number 4 130 which told me head gasket needs to be replaced and the head machined so watch for this. also for the cam seals if there not leaking don't worry till they do. you already took the step to convert to alternator i also recommend taking the points out and convert to electronic ignition. if you can aford it convert to a 4" heat exchanger . i would also change the impeller and housing
'

Thank you fmalott.

I just bought it and it has had ?600 worth of outdrive work inc. bellows gearbox and gimble bearing.

I will measure the heat exchanger to see if it has already been done.

Regarding points - 2 schools of thought. For problems points can be easily replaced along with condenser and coil at sea but if leccy ignition fails I'm done for. What do you think ?

Compression test due this week. Previous owner said 120-125 for all pots.

Mind you he also tould me its a 140 not a 470.....go figure.

Regarding the cam seal - if it fails will it be obvious from the outside or does it also fail leaking inside with no tell tale signs ?

Any further comments or advise greatfully received. I know there are alot of seasoned 470 users on this forum and great to have such a source of knowledge available.

Regards.

Ron.

 

[Eric 3.7LX Alpha 1]

Re: Advice on 470 Please.

If the cam seal goes, it should drip coolant in the bilge before it gets into oil, as long as the weep hole passage is clear.

Read this link from Breezeworks.net from someone who documented the procedure to replace the seals with some nice clear photos:
http://www.breezeworks.net/cgi-bin/...=1138&ReturnPage=&PagePosition=2&ThreadPage=1

I'm still running points, and don't mind them at all. Easy system to maintain and repair.

 

[fmalott]

Re: Advice on 470 Please.

no you won't when the cam seals go there is a weep hole you will see the fluid come out this hole. your compression is good but not great it should be averaging 150 but you should get some hours with that compression please don't trust what other people say check the compression yourself. when you get going on the water keep your eyes on the temperature reason is your exhaust manifold and riser are made of cast iron so there is going to be alot of corrosion that will plug up the riser at the gasket

 

[Rake722]

Re: Advice on 470 Please.

Thank you all so far.

Oh and another question - I have the old type starter 50-72550 with slave soleniod and it has packed up - whats reccomended - rebuild or replace with later model ? If so which please ?


http://bpi.ebasicpower.com/c/MER10J-IO/Inboard-Outboard+Starters+for+Mercruiser

pic of the lump

Thanks again

Ron.

 

[stonyloam]

Re: Advice on 470 Please.

I will measure the heat exchanger to see if it has already been done.

Regarding points - 2 schools of thought. For problems points can be easily replaced along with condenser and coil at sea but if leccy ignition fails I'm done for. What do you think ?

Compression test due this week. Previous owner said 120-125 for all pots.

Regarding the cam seal - if it fails will it be obvious from the outside or does it also fail leaking inside with no tell tale signs ?

Famalott is right on with the compression test. In addition you should do a cooling system pressure check. Some autoparts stores (like Autozone) will let you borrow the tools.

I changed over to a Petronix ignition, but keep the old points setup in the glovebox, just in case. If you have the tools you can change back in 1/2 hour or so.

Your po compression test seems a little low, but they were all about the same which is a good thing. New test will telll you what you need to know.

With the cam seals: There are two with a space between them. Both seals face the high pressure coolant. There is a weep hole that drains that space, so if the front seal fails and the coolant leaks, the coolant is no longer under pressure, the coolant will leak out of that hole, rather than past the second seal into the crankcase. So locate that weep hole on the lower starboard side of the engine waterpump and make sure that it is clear. Also it is not like they fail every year. My boat is 25 years old and the seals have been changed once about 10 years ago and are working fine. While we are talking about coolant, make sure the antifreeze in your block is about 50/50.

The 470 is not nearly as bad as some folks say, and just think in the fall, just pull the aft heat exchanger plug and your freeze protection is done, no worrying about a cracked block in the spring. Now that you have it go out and enjoy.

 

[Rake722]

Re: Advice on 470 Please.

Hi again all and thanks again of course.

I was sooooo upset when I found out I had a 470 as opposed to a 140 I could have called the PO and given him a piece of my mind and I think I might still do that as effectivly he lied blatantly as we discussed the motor being a 470 and he said that only the rocker cover was from a 470. Whats he been hiding ?

Allegedly it was rebuilt last year....

Anyway, back on topic, thanks for reassuring me. I will check all things mentioned and report back over the week.

I just need to get the starter repaired or replaced before I can run up the motor and take her for her test drive.

I have to relearn gassers now, been playing the TDI game for past 6 years although in the past I learnt tractors and MC engines.

people keep giving me the heebie jeebies about taking my family out in a 20 year old boat with a 30 odd year old engine.

If there is anything else for me to check please advise as I will be working on her through the week and weekend.

Regards.

Ron.

 

[Rake722]

Re: Advice on 470 Please.

Oh I just remembered - the starter - any other advice ? go for the same again or changeout to something better ? Sierra ?

Thanks guys.

Ron.

 

[stonyloam]

Re: Advice on 470 Please.

This one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Starter-Mer...-96-/140704345435?vxp=mtr&hash=item20c2a1ed5b Wire your current solenoid as the slave to activate the starter solenoid. Hate to be blunt here, but there is only one person to be upset with and it is not the PO. So my advice is to quit complaining about the PO deceiving you, when it is obvious with a 2 second look that it is not a 140. My advise to anyone is to always take an experienced person along to look at a boat, even if you have to pay them for their time. The less expensive the boat the more important this is. Anyway if the motor was indeed rebuilt you should be able to get many years of reliable service out of it. You might even learn to like it.

 

[achris]

Re: Advice on 470 Please.

...people keep giving me the heebie jeebies about taking my family out in a 20 year old boat with a 30 odd year old engine.....

Hey Ron,

My boat's 40 year old and I trust it more than I would a new one.... And I happily go out 45 nautical miles.... Given, the engine is only 6 years old (and probably been in and out of the boat more than yours :facepalm, but a well maintained 470 is as reliable as any...

Tell the people poo-pooing you to get stuffed!

Chris.....

 

[Rake722]

Re: Advice on 470 Please.

This one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Starter-Mer...-96-/140704345435?vxp=mtr&hash=item20c2a1ed5b Wire your current solenoid as the slave to activate the starter solenoid. Hate to be blunt here, but there is only one person to be upset with and it is not the PO. So my advice is to quit complaining about the PO deceiving you, when it is obvious with a 2 second look that it is not a 140. My advise to anyone is to always take an experienced person along to look at a boat, even if you have to pay them for their time. The less expensive the boat the more important this is. Anyway if the motor was indeed rebuilt you should be able to get many years of reliable service out of it. You might even learn to like it.

Hey Stormy, I kinda take your point but......he knew I was new to it and blatantly lied. OK I conceed to not having taken someone with me but it was a 700 mile RT.

Time to get on with it and after reading lots I find that the problems of this engine are not show stoppers but things that can be addressed and sorted and then its a stonker of a motor with plus points.

Regarding the starter, I need to fnd one in the UK and cant as yet locate the linked one. Will that one take a soaking / splashing without failing ? I read ARCO ones dont like a splash.

I will like this engine. I am sure, so long as I do the maint.

thanks again.

Ron.

 

[Rake722]

Re: Advice on 470 Please.

Hey Ron,

My boat's 40 year old and I trust it more than I would a new one.... And I happily go out 45 nautical miles.... Given, the engine is only 6 years old (and probably been in and out of the boat more than yours :facepalm, but a well maintained 470 is as reliable as any...

Tell the people poo-pooing you to get stuffed!

Chris.....

G'day chris and thanks.

I will be teeling em to get stuffed, I hope they dont laugh though if I come in with a pair of oars

 

[stonyloam]

Re: Advice on 470 Please.

Regarding the starter, I need to fnd one in the UK and cant as yet locate the linked one. Will that one take a soaking / splashing without failing ? I read ARCO ones dont like a splash.

Across the pond, try http://recommendations.ebay.co.uk/N...99155A1-THERMOSTAT-/MESMR?_pvtid=110601699666 that Sierra 18-3555 will work fine. As talked about before just wire the starter solenoid to the large terminal on the slave solenoid. I believe it will be a red/yellow wire. You can replace the end terminals on the wire and go with a smaller diameter wire, like 12 gauge. The shipping on that one might be a little high, but try looking for that number locally, might have more luck. I forgot before, but welcome to the 470 club, even if you got here by accident.

 

[Rake722]

Re: Advice on 470 Please.

Across the pond, try http://recommendations.ebay.co.uk/N...99155A1-THERMOSTAT-/MESMR?_pvtid=110601699666 that Sierra 18-3555 will work fine. As talked about before just wire the starter solenoid to the large terminal on the slave solenoid. I believe it will be a red/yellow wire. You can replace the end terminals on the wire and go with a smaller diameter wire, like 12 gauge. The shipping on that one might be a little high, but try looking for that number locally, might have more luck. I forgot before, but welcome to the 470 club, even if you got here by accident.

Thanks stony / Terry.

Welcome appreciated.

18-3555 is a thermostat but saw the 18-6272 on same page - too much post.

I ended up finding this - I read that someone (http://www.marineengine.com/boat-fo...ed-help-with-see-if-starter-is-the-issue-here) advised to go for PMGR and stumbled accrros this -

http://www.trickettmarineproducts.co.uk/mercruiser-startermotor.html

MES5400M

Hope this does the trick !

 

[stonyloam]

Re: Advice on 470 Please.

MES5400M

Sorry about the mix up in the numbers. Yes that is exactly the same starter that I have.

 

[Rake722]

Re: Advice on 470 Please.

Sorry about the mix up in the numbers. Yes that is exactly the same starter that I have.

No probs terry.
Bought it and will receive tomorrow.

Went and had a great Afternoon with my boy at the yard today. Sun out river flat and birds a singin with jovi on the speakers we set about looking over the engine.

I will load detailed pics tomorrow but I do have serial 4337985 which is the 1976 - 1979 model and it has a 3 inch exchanger

Serious money for those but I guess I must bite the bullet.

Is there any way of checking that the weep hole for the WP is clear without removing the casing ?

Cheers

Ron

 

[achris]

Re: Advice on 470 Please.

... serial 4337985 which is the 1976 - 1979 model and it has a 3 inch exchanger ...

Yep, the first year Merc introduced them, 1976..

 

[stonyloam]

Re: Advice on 470 Please.

No probs terry.
it has a 3 inch exchanger

Serious money for those but I guess I must bite the bullet.

Is there any way of checking that the weep hole for the WP is clear without removing the casing ?

There is a misconception about the 3" exchanger. It is conventional thinking that it is inadequate for the 470. That is not true (IMHO), they will do the job if the rest of your cooling system is in good shape. The problem is they do not have a lot of excess cooling capacity and when the owner would neglect the impeller you would not have good enough raw water flow to keep the engine cool with the smaller exchanger. So my suggestion, for what it is worth is make sure your temperature gauge is working correctly and take it out and give it a run. The temp should come up and stabilize over the full RPM range. If it does you should be good to go. To be on the safe side, new impeller every 2 years, some guys say every year to be safe. After all that old three incher has been keeping that engine cool for the last 30 years.

Just take a toothpick and stick it up into the weep hole to make sure it is free of blockage.

 

[Rake722]

Re: Advice on 470 Please.

Thanks Terry.

I guess I'll run as is and check the temps and see how she goes. Any issues I'll tear down the exchanger and go through the cooling system with a fine toothed comb.

Incidentally here are some detailed images of the engine as is.

Dizzy -

Rochester 2bbl

Alternator single wire

Fuel Pump

Teleflex ( no power steering fitted)

General Top End