Am I being taken for a ride here?

DJ Jaws

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Nov 6, 2008
Messages
43
Working on my long-term project. 1988 Sea Ray Sorrento w 5.7 Merc. Long story short, the block froze and cracked. I bought a new block to replace it, took it to the machine shop. I was anticipating boring cylinders and hot bath and a few other minor things. However, they started telling me about oil train clearances and crankshaft tolerances to the 0.0003 or my oil pressure wouldn't be right, and then talking about custom piston wall honing. I've been working on engines since I was 6 years old, and I've never heard of that. At the ten-thousandth level, you are dealing with very minute details, things that can change with even small changes in ambient temperature. I find it very hard to believe that a main bearing that is 0.0003 out of spec is that big of a deal that it will create a dangerous drop in oil pressure, and it sounded like these guys were going to sell me a bunch of stuff I don't really need. I know they do great work and all, but I have to draw the line somewhere.

Engine blocks are a pretty simple concept. They have no moving parts and except for cylinder walls, they don't wear. Unless subjected to extreme conditions, a block is a block. My question for the group is this: At what point should I draw the line? What is really negligible and what do I really need to do to make this bottom end right? Is boring, cook & cam enough, with a rebuild set, or do I need to get the oil train clearances reset and all this other stuff?
 

Bondo

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 17, 2002
Messages
71,090
Working on my long-term project. 1988 Sea Ray Sorrento w 5.7 Merc. Long story short, the block froze and cracked. I bought a new block to replace it, took it to the machine shop. I was anticipating boring cylinders and hot bath and a few other minor things. However, they started telling me about oil train clearances and crankshaft tolerances to the 0.0003 or my oil pressure wouldn't be right, and then talking about custom piston wall honing. I've been working on engines since I was 6 years old, and I've never heard of that. At the ten-thousandth level, you are dealing with very minute details, things that can change with even small changes in ambient temperature. I find it very hard to believe that a main bearing that is 0.0003 out of spec is that big of a deal that it will create a dangerous drop in oil pressure, and it sounded like these guys were going to sell me a bunch of stuff I don't really need. I know they do great work and all, but I have to draw the line somewhere.

Engine blocks are a pretty simple concept. They have no moving parts and except for cylinder walls, they don't wear. Unless subjected to extreme conditions, a block is a block. My question for the group is this: At what point should I draw the line? What is really negligible and what do I really need to do to make this bottom end right? Is boring, cook & cam enough, with a rebuild set, or do I need to get the oil train clearances reset and all this other stuff?

Ayuh,..... How long do ya plan to run this motor,..??

How much do you value Reliability,..??

A Block is a very precise piece of cast iron,......

Out of "Spec" is outa spec,...

I wouldn't rebuild a motor, without a full rotatin' assembly balance, myself,....
 

alldodge

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Mar 8, 2009
Messages
42,575
Working on my long-term project. 1988 Sea Ray Sorrento w 5.7 Merc. Long story short, the block froze and cracked. I bought a new block to replace it, took it to the machine shop. I was anticipating boring cylinders and hot bath and a few other minor things. However, they started telling me about oil train clearances and crankshaft tolerances to the 0.0003 or my oil pressure wouldn't be right, and then talking about custom piston wall honing. I've been working on engines since I was 6 years old, and I've never heard of that. At the ten-thousandth level, you are dealing with very minute details, things that can change with even small changes in ambient temperature. I find it very hard to believe that a main bearing that is 0.0003 out of spec is that big of a deal that it will create a dangerous drop in oil pressure, and it sounded like these guys were going to sell me a bunch of stuff I don't really need. I know they do great work and all, but I have to draw the line somewhere.

Engine blocks are a pretty simple concept. They have no moving parts and except for cylinder walls, they don't wear. Unless subjected to extreme conditions, a block is a block. My question for the group is this: At what point should I draw the line? What is really negligible and what do I really need to do to make this bottom end right? Is boring, cook & cam enough, with a rebuild set, or do I need to get the oil train clearances reset and all this other stuff?

>0003 is a bit much but .003 is not. Custom wall honing is something the machine shop would need to explain why. Turning a crank and boring cylinders is no that big a deal for a machine shop. Throwing out a forth digit tolerance is out of line. Most machine shops will grid the crank and all you need is over size bearings and your good. To be sure, I always use plastic gauge to check bearing tolerances. Ask what the finish product will cost and then use that to determine if it is worth while to buy a new crate motor or long block
 

Bt Doctur

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Aug 29, 2004
Messages
19,345
UntitledTa_zpsd3e5ab81.jpg
 
Joined
Feb 17, 2012
Messages
2,906
Working on my long-term project. 1988 Sea Ray Sorrento w 5.7 Merc. Long story short, the block froze and cracked. I bought a new block to replace it, took it to the machine shop. I was anticipating boring cylinders and hot bath and a few other minor things. However, they started telling me about oil train clearances and crankshaft tolerances to the 0.0003 or my oil pressure wouldn't be right, and then talking about custom piston wall honing. I've been working on engines since I was 6 years old, and I've never heard of that. At the ten-thousandth level, you are dealing with very minute details, things that can change with even small changes in ambient temperature. I find it very hard to believe that a main bearing that is 0.0003 out of spec is that big of a deal that it will create a dangerous drop in oil pressure, and it sounded like these guys were going to sell me a bunch of stuff I don't really need. I know they do great work and all, but I have to draw the line somewhere.

Engine blocks are a pretty simple concept. They have no moving parts and except for cylinder walls, they don't wear. Unless subjected to extreme conditions, a block is a block. My question for the group is this: At what point should I draw the line? What is really negligible and what do I really need to do to make this bottom end right? Is boring, cook & cam enough, with a rebuild set, or do I need to get the oil train clearances reset and all this other stuff?

Sounds like you were talking to a sales man or some one who wants to impress you. If the machine is accurate to 0.0003 then jolly good show old chap grind away. If they want to hone the walls in a special pattern then im all for it as it saves doing it by hand and ending up with a real custom job. Its still basically a grind, bore and hone just on modern equipment. At the end of the day it comes down to how much money will it cost to have the work done.
 

DJ Jaws

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Nov 6, 2008
Messages
43
Ayuh,..... How long do ya plan to run this motor,..??

How much do you value Reliability,..??

A Block is a very precise piece of cast iron,......

Out of "Spec" is outa spec,...

I wouldn't rebuild a motor, without a full rotatin' assembly balance, myself,....

I understand that, but except for cylinder walls, they don't wear. The main and rod bearings wear over time, as do the cam bearings and to a lesser extent, the lifter ports. The rest is support and a bunch of chambers for oil to flow through. Unless subjected to extreme conditions, a block today should be pretty darn close to the way it was made 30 years ago. I'm wondering how much reliability is gained by doing this extra $1k worth of work they want to do vs every other motor rebuild I've ever done.
 

DJ Jaws

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Nov 6, 2008
Messages
43
>0003 is a bit much but .003 is not. Custom wall honing is something the machine shop would need to explain why. Turning a crank and boring cylinders is no that big a deal for a machine shop. Throwing out a forth digit tolerance is out of line. Most machine shops will grid the crank and all you need is over size bearings and your good. To be sure, I always use plastic gauge to check bearing tolerances. Ask what the finish product will cost and then use that to determine if it is worth while to buy a new crate motor or long block

I would understand if this was a racing engine (which these guys do a lot of) or some other high-performance application, but this is a stock Merc 260 5.7. Granted, they take some abuse, but like I said above, will I really be gaining THAT much by doing all this other stuff, or will I be losing THAT much by not doing it?
 

DJ Jaws

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Nov 6, 2008
Messages
43
Sounds like you were talking to a sales man or some one who wants to impress you. If the machine is accurate to 0.0003 then jolly good show old chap grind away. If they want to hone the walls in a special pattern then im all for it as it saves doing it by hand and ending up with a real custom job. Its still basically a grind, bore and hone just on modern equipment. At the end of the day it comes down to how much money will it cost to have the work done.

That's part of my concern. It's an extra $1000 worth of work. If it's really necessary, so be it. However, I've never heard of it before and my BS light is going off.
 

achris

More fish than mountain goat
Joined
May 19, 2004
Messages
27,468
That's part of my concern. It's an extra $1000 worth of work. If it's really necessary, so be it. However, I've never heard of it before and my BS light is going off.

Wouldn't the light go ON if you were detecting BS? :noidea:
 
Joined
Feb 17, 2012
Messages
2,906
That's part of my concern. It's an extra $1000 worth of work. If it's really necessary, so be it. However, I've never heard of it before and my BS light is going off.

That price doesn't sound right. I would take it to another machine shop for a quote.
 

DJ Jaws

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Nov 6, 2008
Messages
43
That price doesn't sound right. I would take it to another machine shop for a quote.

Keep in mind that this is NJ and everything is more expensive just because it's NJ. I am also using very round figures, but it is taking a $500 bore, cook, & cam to a $1300 job. Plus they are the only guys in the area that will do boat motors. A lot of the shops around here won't touch them because they are a pain to fix if something goes wrong.
 

Walt T

Lieutenant
Joined
Mar 16, 2002
Messages
1,369
They're trying to take advantage of your lack of knowledge. Find another machine shop. Good Grief this is why people have a low opinion of mechanics. I know they're machinists but to the unwashed they're all the same. Once it's all machined properly which as others have said the nearest thousandth is fine, Be SURE to plastigauge everything, check ring gap, check wall clearances.If you don't know how, now is a great time to learn. Buy some of the micrometers and cylinder tools from Harbor Freight and you can at least look like you know what you're doing. You'll be all feeling important n stuff. Hey wait til your buds are all in the garage and you whip out the plastigauge and micrometers and after all the "Measure your d**k with the 1" micrometer jokes you start pretending to measure s**t and hope nobody there actually knows about that stuff and then proclaim loudly that "Those boneheads at the machine shop don't know what they're doing dag naba ding dong gonna have to send this mf'r back sheesh" Then finish off the cooler of beer you happen to have handy there while you expertly diagnose every little problem with their cars and boats hoping they drink enough so they won't remember how full of crap you were the next morning.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Feb 17, 2012
Messages
2,906
Keep in mind that this is NJ and everything is more expensive just because it's NJ. I am also using very round figures, but it is taking a $500 bore, cook, & cam to a $1300 job. Plus they are the only guys in the area that will do boat motors. A lot of the shops around here won't touch them because they are a pain to fix if something goes wrong.

The last v8 I had done for a chevy was around $800 for machine work (no parts). They did match the rings for me. So $1300 is not really $1000 extra.
 

ricohman

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Jul 30, 2011
Messages
1,631
I understand that, but except for cylinder walls, they don't wear. The main and rod bearings wear over time, as do the cam bearings and to a lesser extent, the lifter ports. The rest is support and a bunch of chambers for oil to flow through. Unless subjected to extreme conditions, a block today should be pretty darn close to the way it was made 30 years ago. I'm wondering how much reliability is gained by doing this extra $1k worth of work they want to do vs every other motor rebuild I've ever done.

Nope. I take it you have never built an engine?
Blocks can twist, warp, bend or whatever you want to call it. I've seen SBC and SBF motors pushed beyond what they were rated for and promplty made into junk.
Some blocks are so out of spec you are better off getting a brand new block and build on that. I've put my straight edge on many blocks and declared them unfit for reuse due to the deck being so far out that no amount of machine work could help.
So no, blocks made 30 years ago are not the same as they were when they were new. New after market blocks are built to far higher specs that make original iron look like old junk.
 
Top