B30 Fuel injection conversion

[heryrg2711]

Hey guys. So i just bent my pushrods, that's what i get for doing something quick.

I found b30 fuel injected motor around town, yes they did make those to my surprise, 1973 to 1976(roughly) Volvo 164E.

Question is, can i take my current carbed B30 motor and transform it into EFI using a donor EFI motor?
Anybody done this? Any thoughts?

Worst case i'll buy the motor and use it's internals.

 

[Don S]

Re: B30 Fuel injection conversion

Question is, can i take my current carbed B30 motor and transform it into EFI using a donor EFI motor?

No, It's NOT marine certified.
Besides, if you can't deal with adjusting valves, don't even attempt to convert to some antique fuel injection system no one knows anything about.

 

[heryrg2711]

Re: B30 Fuel injection conversion

Thanks don. When you say marine certified, what exactly do you mean? Is the water jacket different on the auto version? Also the water pump is most likely different.
The problem was not adjusting valves but installing the rocker bar, somehow the pushrods weren't in correct position when i started the motor and thus i bent it.

 

[heryrg2711]

Re: B30 Fuel injection conversion

I guess the fact that it's not designed for raw water cooling would be the biggest issue.

 

[dennis461]

Re: B30 Fuel injection conversion

Let's here from some experts.
Sounds like a good idea to me.
You will have to move almost all the auxilliaries to the new engine block.
There is a cover over the oil pump gear and a hose to the carbureator, you keep that with the boat.
Need to find an appropriate place on the air intake so it will draw crankcase fumes into the intake.
Fuel pump pressure is much higher on injected, you'll probably need a marine race electric fuel pump with built in pressure regulator.

Raw water?
Mine has antifreeze in the engine and a heat exchanger for the raw water.
All the Volvo AQ's had this arrangement right?
The electronic ignition has to be the kind with the CPS in the distributer, not on the bell housing.
(Some folks still know how these work)

What year model volvo did you score?

 

[Don S]

Re: B30 Fuel injection conversion

What year model volvo did you score?

Did you forget to read his original post? It's a mid 70's automotive fuel injection that he wants to stick on an obsolete marine engine.

 

[heryrg2711]

Re: B30 Fuel injection conversion

Motor is a 1974 Volvo 164e.
I think you have a newer half closed cooling system, my motor has a straight up raw cooling system, sucks raw water and circulates it through the motor.
Fuel pump will have to be different.
I think that some of the 164E's still have points ignition, electrical would be way better, not too sure about this.

The main concern i have is that the water jacket is the same. Also might need to convert to a closed cooling system to make the automotive head work.

 

[heryrg2711]

Re: B30 Fuel injection conversion

It's a mid 70's automotive fuel injection that he wants to stick on an obsolete marine engine.

And what's wrong with that idea?? It's not like i'm trying to invent the wheel, it's the same motor. I know many problems arise in doing this and it's probably not worth doing, but i wanted to know what the real problems would be in doing this.

 

[Don S]

Re: B30 Fuel injection conversion

I don't care what you do, go for it. You'll figure it out ......... or not.
Like I said earlier, it's not marine rated (safety fire/explosion thing). Marine engines also run a different duty cycle than automotive. Have at it, should keep busy and broke for a few years trying to make it work.

 

[heryrg2711]

Re: B30 Fuel injection conversion

Don, i'm not trying to convince you it's a good idea. I'm not sure myself, that is why i put this idea on the forum, to see the good and bad of this conversion and what real problems will arise when doing this, i don't need the "marine motor is not the same as auto motor" reiteration.
I'm not installing an auto motor on my boat. I need to know how the auto head is different from the marine head(regarding the B30 motor), what cooling issues will come up(closed loop needed?), and what other small things(probably not so small and many) might change like fuel pump.

 

[Glastron_V210]

Re: B30 Fuel injection conversion

I'm a big fan of fuel injection, but I have to say, I'm with Don on this one. Unless it is a very popular injection system (GM, Megasquirt) you will have problems because the air fuel ratio and spark advance will likely have to be tuned to work for the marine environment, which is a sustained high load application. This rework has to be done to avoid detonation, which will end your engine in a hurry!

For most the marine rating is both a practical and liability concern. I use an auto sourced distributor (GM HEI Distributor) but these were used in marine application later on, and far exceed the quality of the original engine components.

I did a bunch of research before using them to make sure I'm safe. From the sound of it you have not done this.

Unless you have intimate knowledge of injection systems (Which you CAN learn btw) and a method of tuning the system you propose, I'd not do it.

I doubt very much therer is any difference in the engine. I don't know this engine though. My experience is in gm 5.0 and 5.7, in which case there is little to no difference in a truck vs. marine application.

Chay

 

[wellcraft19]

Re: B30 Fuel injection conversion

I remember the Volvo 164E real well (neighbor had one, that was Volvo's first "luxury" car back in the 70ies).

Unlike many European cars of those days, having only carbs, the Volvo 164E had an early version of an electronic fuel injection on the B30F engine, the Bosch D-Jetronic (I had the same in my relatively meager Saab 99).
As gas was pricey back then, it was known to be a fuel hog - but man was it a smooth and quiet ride! 175 HP! And this was a BIG engine, since most cars sported I-4s in the 1.2 to 2.0 liter size.

All that said, the engine was/is also just an extended version of the regular Volvo I-4s of those days (the B20) and many parts are interchangeable.

You already heard about car parts in a boat and risk of explosion (always a bad idea to introduce auto parts in a boat), so I am only sharing some links that can be useful if you want to find out more about the injected version of the B30;
http://w107.pbworks.com/f/DJetronic.pdf
http://www.164club.se/wb1/wb14.htm
http://www.164club.org/d-jet.html
http://www.164.se/
http://www.swedishbricks.net/faq/fidjet.html

If needing more from Sweden, I might be able to help, or translate.

 

[dennis461]

Re: B30 Fuel injection conversion

Did you forget to read his original post? It's a mid 70's automotive fuel injection that he wants to stick on an obsolete marine engine.

Yes I read it.
Am I breaking forum rules by asking a question?


He posted , "... b30 fuel injected motor around town, yes they did make those to my surprise, 1973 to 1976(roughly) Volvo 164E.

..."

A far as I know, the 164E did not have a B30 block, it was a B19 2.0 liter (I could be wrong).
He posted roughly...

Bending pushrods is good news, now he has an excuse to upgrade his motor!

But,

h, did you break a 6-cylinder motor and want to replace with 4-cylinder?

 

[wellcraft19]

Re: B30 Fuel injection conversion

Nah, all Volvo 164 came with B30 engines (first carbed, then EFI, and later very, very restricted EFI to meed CARB standards, dropping HP from 175 to 134 here in the US)
I grow up fairly close to both the engine factory and the assembly plant...:redface:

But that is likely a discussion for another forum.

 

[RogersJetboat454]

Re: B30 Fuel injection conversion

A far as I know, the 164E did not have a B30 block, it was a B19 2.0 liter (I could be wrong).

Yep, you are. 164's always had, and only had a B30. Either carbed with side drought Stromberg's, or injected with Bosch jetronic.

The 164's are the saving grace for us poor bastards with a AQ165-170 series engine, as allot of the mechanical parts are interchangeable. How ever, the injected heads are different in the respect that they have ports cast in them to fit the injectors. They can be made to be used on a carbed setup if you have the ports plugged. Valve sizes and compression also vary between the gas engines and injected engines.

As Don has pointed out, the thought of transferring fuel injection from one of these cars to a marine engine presents a multi-faceted problem. You are dealing with a dedicated distributor, and several electrical components that are not USCG certified, and have the potential to turn you and the boat into ash after the explosion. You would be using an archaic injection system which has little to no tolerance to be used outside it's intended purpose. Parts to fix, or maintain this system are going to be more difficult to find, and more expensive to purchase than sticking with the solex carbs, and points distributor. And after all is said and done, the boat is probably gunna run like $h!*.

My advice to the OP...
If you can get this injected engine for a song, then go for it. Pull the push rods you need. Put the long block aside, and throw the injection system on ebay to recover some of your cost.

 

[heryrg2711]

Re: B30 Fuel injection conversion

Thanks guys, just the info i was looking for.
Wellcraft, thanks for the links, very helpfull.
I called about 30 junkyards today looking for volvo 164, no luck, then called the one nearest to my house again and lucky me they put out a 164E out today.
I went there, checked out the motor, was fully intact. Got all the pushrods, pushrod guides, and the BOSCH d-jet ECU; all for $40,
Hopefully i'll sell the ecu and make some $$

Since i got the pushrods, i doubt i will change anything, yet , but still an interesting idea.
Reading more about it, the main challenge(as seen on the surface) would be adjusting all the sensors to my application, the hardest (i think) would be the pressure sensor, one on the block and one in intake manifold(if i understood correctly). Then i would have to replace the distributor( not too hard since the replacement would be direct fit, same breaker points style, just added electronics which send timing info to ECU), cylinder temp sensor would have to be changed, fuel pump with extra relays, and new fuse box for all the electronics.

Everything else is on/in the manifold. If i understand correctly, the major part of this injection is the pressure in the manifold, this determines the length of time the jet is on and that is the only factor that changes, spray concentration does not change.

About the duty cycle, what parts would be most affected by it? I know the injectors would most likely not last. The intake manifold would last, i think.
I think the head is very very similar, besides some temp sensor.
ROGGERS, are you certain the valves are different?? Anyway to find out for sure? Also from what i read the compression is lower on same injected motors, how would this affect my situation.

If the valve train is identical and compression change is irrelevant, would you guys agree the injected head would work in marine application?
Might be a silly question: would the duty cycle of marine motor compare to an auto motor running in first gear all the time, probably uphill?

So as of now i think this would be a hell of head ache, especially all the sensors. Having said that, i think this has the potential to work.

 

[Tail_Gunner]

Re: B30 Fuel injection conversion

If you like to tinker yes it would be a intresting project..just to se how it all works....You need to find a tech who knew that injection type and his feelings towards it ...70's fuel injection was a nightmare by todays standards...even in pristine conditon it was hard to work on... if you knew the system well and all of its idiosyncrasies yes it would run but had to be constantly nursed.

Duty Cycle http://newboatbuilders.com/pages/fuel-2.html

In essence a marine motor is under high loads all the time up and down up and down and crusie at say 3000 rpm using max touqure all the time... a bit like towing a boat in town under heavy accleration stop light to stop light...In marine injection your fuel maps are running rich at low rpm to prevent detonation and cool the engine.. I look at how i boat and think of a nascar engine endless running around at about 3500 to 4000 rpm all day long or just idleing along doing little. Cars are programmed completely different there needs are different..Running up hill in first gear yes i can see that if you do 30 mile river runs that would be a good anaolgy and a good tuner could build a tune to do such a thing...that is lean it out at 3000-4000 rpm for just such a need. Fuel injection was meant to control emissoins in cars on a large scale not to practical in everyday boating....But that is just a opinion

Now if one could use Direct Injection along with oxygen sensors and variable cam timing and a adaptive ecu....That will someday day be a fantastic opiton for a boat and expensive...But you would get high touqre levels at low rpm and great econ.

 

[wellcraft19]

Re: B30 Fuel injection conversion

Now if one could use Direct Injection along with oxygen sensors and variable cam timing and a adaptive ecu....That will someday day be a fantastic opiton for a boat and expensive...But you would get high touqre levels at low rpm and great econ.

I think "someone" did; Toyota "Epic" ski boats (http://www.epicmarine.com/) with the Toyota/Lexus sourced 4.0 liter V8. Excellent engine, just never a commercial success (but liley more due to Toyota's marketing efforts, than the boat itself).
Like many have stressed, "simplicity" is in many cases a good thing in boats. That's why we still use antique push-rod engines, blocks out of cast iron (versus aluminum), carbs, etc.

But apart from the Toyota ski boats, one start to see more and more of that very same V8 adapted by crafty home builders. Sweet engine, and more than once I wish I could transplant the silky engine from my LandCruiser (4.7 L V8) into the boat.

 

[Glastron_V210]

Re: B30 Fuel injection conversion

"Fuel injection was meant to control emissoins in cars on a large scale not to practical in everyday boating....But that is just a opinion"


This is not true. There is vast application in boating. The advantages are the same for boat engines as car engines. Load is load. TBI is better than a carb, and mpi is better than either due to the ability to design runners for air only, rather than an air fuel mixture.

Car/Truck tunes are not that much different from marine tunes. On the GMs, marine tunes are typically stripped down timing wise to remove the vacuum advance, and a bit richer af ratio wise across the band. Other than that, there really is not much difference. The thing is though, this small difference can really impact the detonation potential. You have to know what is going on to determine the potential, or simply try it and take the risk.

For example, I looked at a stock TBI ignition advance map when I installed the TBI ecm on my boat. The 100MAP timing curve (Wide open throttle) were +-1 deg from the stock volvo rpm only advance curve. In other words, volvo used the worst case scenario of wot and ignored the efficiencies that could be gained by increased advance in the lower load ranges at the same rpm.

The fueling is similar; the tbi holds closed loop stoich with the o2 sensor until either the MAP goes above a certain point (close to wot), or when the throttle position sensor goes above a certain point. In other words, when the load is high, they richen up beyond stoich, which is what you would expect for power. You just have to be able to adjust this to optimize power and minimize detonation potential.

Some 'approved' after market systems only use rpm for fueling and advance (Called a 2d system). Now that keeping it simple!

There are 2 types of 3D injection systems; maf and map. The first directly measures air mass with a mass airflow sensor, the other uses a pressure sensor, the manifold absolute pressure sensor. The map system is more forgiving than the map, but the map is far simpler and more reliable. The map system was also called 'speed density'. Anyway, the computer measures the map signal, and rpm and then looks up a value in a table corresponding to these values and spits out an injector duty cycle to mix the right amount of gas with the 'known' amount of air. That's the basic. There is fuel enrichening code to match and changes in throttle position (a digital accelerator pump), and a bunch of other stuff, but you get the idea.

In short, if you want to try the injection, go ahead. But know, you may have detonation depending on how it was programmed from the factory.



Chay

 

[heryrg2711]

Re: B30 Fuel injection conversion

Thanks Chay, good info.