Bad Ground?? Please help me stop cursing.

[OctoberSea]

Just joined and was encouraged by some really good wiring discussions here... and now a have a problem. Short version:

1977 Reinell powered with 1996 Volvo Penta 5.7l Gi I/O duoprop. 2 deep cycle marine batteries in parallel.

Keep losing all power when I turn the ignition key. This started shortly after wiring in a new auto bilge pump. A variety of weird symptoms immediately before cutting out, but I started with checking the battery switch... had near 13 volts at the batteries, about 3 at the panel. Two terminals were badly corroded, so I replaced the switch, cleaned all battery cables and cable lugs, replaced one bad lug. Turned the key, off goes the power. Wait a while (sometimes 30 minutes, sometimes overnight), and the power comes back.

Make a very long, curse-laden story short, the batteries are good, cables are good, battery switch is good, panel/bus looks good. I'm guessing that I have an auto-reset switch and a bad ground. I think it's coincidence that the bilge pump looked to be part of the problem (and drew most of my attention for a while), because installation of the pump calls for a direct ground connection from the pump to a battery. I had that lead on the same single ground cable that runs from the negative post to the ground bolt on the back of the motor.

Now that the power's back, the cabin lights (2 @ 10w each) flicker somewhat with no other load on the batteries.

What do you think? Does a bad ground make sense? I hope so... easy fix, but dang, they couldn't have put that in a more difficult place to get to...

Thanks in advance for any comments or advice. The kings are coming back in here to the Juneau area, and I'm dying to get out there...

 

[jtexas]

Re: Bad Ground?? Please help me stop cursing.

yup, those gremlins mostly always signal a bad connection.....loose wire or corrosion on a contact, or corrosion inside the insulation on a battery cable...it works when it feels like it.....could even be arcing somewhere, you know that's not good..............

I don't see how you can continue troubleshooting with confidence until you've replace the (-) battery cable (at least, I don't see how I could)

 

[flargin]

Re: Bad Ground?? Please help me stop cursing.

One thing to try is to get a long wire, attach it to the - on the battery... may want to go to the point of adding "eyelets" on the ends or connect it to sharp probe on one end. And keep chasing the ground until you find where it is giving you troubles.

i.e. first try negative to another ground point on the block. if everything works well then you know it is the ground cable, if not follow the ground to the main fuse block etc.

If this does not work, you can use the same method to check positive action by running (switch to + on battery) be careful not to short out.

This is usually pretty good way to figure out where a loose connection is. It is not a fast solution, but it does work, if you are patient.

Loose connections are the worst gremlins to find, they like to hide

Good luck, welcome to the boards.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Bad Ground?? Please help me stop cursing.

If you are tripping a breaker as you suspect, it is not a ground issue since a breaker (or fuse) is never installed in a ground lead.

 

[OctoberSea]

Re: Bad Ground?? Please help me stop cursing.

Thanks all - really helpful input. Good point, Silvertip - I think you're right and I may be wrong about the breaker... I assumed that there was a breaker that I couldn't see or get to, as the penta has three push-button breakers on the top starboard side - (a 50 and two 20's, one of the 20's carries the wiring harness forward) - none of those was tripped. The manual mentions an internal breaker, but that's not for the wiring harness going forward. So I'm thinking that I may be right about the ground, but wrong about the breaker I mentioned. Does this make sense?

Good idea, Flargin, and the next step for snooping this out... I'll try that tonight. Will post back and let you know what I find out. Your help is much appreciated, guys.

 

[OctoberSea]

Re: Bad Ground?? Please help me stop cursing.

.....could even be arcing somewhere, you know that's not good..............

One more question, guys.... if it is the main ground cable and it arced when I turned the key but before it cut out entirely, what should i be concerned about in particular? It's 'cut out' exactly four times in the last 2 days as I tried to troubleshoot and incrementally test/replace pieces along the string. Is there likely damage that could be done, might show up soon, or parts that are especially susceptible? Or is it just a wait and see thing? Lots of big, wild water with not many folks around up here in Southeast AK, and I hate the idea of getting caught with my shorts down.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Bad Ground?? Please help me stop cursing.

If power is cycling on and off you very likely do not have a ground issue. You have a circuit overload or a short somewhere. Shorts and overloads are the only two things that can trip a breaker. Power does not cycle itself without some sort of switching going on. There is a breaker somewhere you are not finding.

 

[OctoberSea]

Re: Bad Ground?? Please help me stop cursing.

If power is cycling on and off you very likely do not have a ground issue. You have a circuit overload or a short somewhere. Shorts and overloads are the only two things that can trip a breaker. Power does not cycle itself without some sort of switching going on. There is a breaker somewhere you are not finding.

Now I'm getting more confused... I wouldn't say it's cycling (not regular at all), but power is intermittent. According to my penta manual (which so far seems spot-on), the only 'hidden' breaker is a 10a breaker on the trim/tilt switch. The other breakers are on the starboard side of the motor... a 50a for the wiring harness running forward, and another 50a for the power trim/tilt motor. None of these have been tripped (they're all push-button reset). Power does come back online, and no fuses have been blown.

Short? Certainly possible... previous owner had a knack for hand-twisting bare wires to make connections, and I've re-spliced and liquid e-taped everything I've come across. The power cutting out only occurs when I turn the ignition switch with no other accessories switched to 'on.' If the ground issue doesn't play out, where should I start looking for shorts? In the instrument leads that are all connected to the ignition switch?

What do the flickering lights suggest? They flicker when they are the only thing switched on, and with the key out of the ignition...

Once again - thanks much for your suggestions!

 

[flargin]

Re: Bad Ground?? Please help me stop cursing.

if you can "reproduce" your power out scenario on demand, you may want to use an ohm meter to check if the circuit breakers are popped during the "blackout". that would eliminate or confirm, but it could give you a false reading if there is a solid short, you could get "continuity" through the short, and think it is through the circuit breaker.(thus electrical can be really tricky to track down)

Back to your flickering lights, it could be a bad ground (bouncing in and out) or it could be a short someplace pulling the voltage down.

Likely if it is a short, you will pop the circuit breaker and they are designed to not re-set if the same short exists when they cool off - that would tie to your "30 minutes to overnight" problem.

You may be forced to start removing elements from your equation (i.e. record and remove all fuses) and see if or when that helps. i have a feeling you will have to isolate the cause of the problem by elimination. You may want to do that with the bilge, since it was the closest known change to your system.

 

[slia67]

Re: Bad Ground?? Please help me stop cursing.

A variety of weird symptoms immediately before cutting out, but I started with checking the battery switch... had near 13 volts at the batteries, about 3 at the panel. Two terminals were badly corroded, so I replaced the switch, cleaned all battery cables and cable lugs, replaced one bad lug. Turned the key, off goes the power. Wait a while (sometimes 30 minutes, sometimes overnight), and the power comes back.

When you say 3 volts to the panel, I assume you are talking about the fuse panel? What have you done about the 3 volts? (or did cleaning the lugs & cables cure this condition?)

My first thought was an internally corroded wire (inside the rubber), especially if since you are running in salt water. If they are not able to carry a full load, they can heat up and not allow power transfer. To test this you have to isolate each circuit and test them seperately with something that will draw a load such as an electric motor.

 

[OctoberSea]

Re: Bad Ground?? Please help me stop cursing.

When you say 3 volts to the panel, I assume you are talking about the fuse panel? What have you done about the 3 volts? (or did cleaning the lugs & cables cure this condition?)

That voltage problem seems to have been fixed with the new battery switch.

Well, tonight the extension cord floodlight goes on and I wade in hip deep... will report back (or be back with more questions....).

 

[OctoberSea]

Re: Bad Ground?? Please help me stop cursing.

Well. Huh. Not much progress. Other than to be less sure than ever. I'm suspecting a short somewhere. How's that for clarity?

I took on the rat's nest of wires under the dash - pulled an labeled everything that was on a dash switch - back up bilge pump, new bilge pump, wipers, heater blower, bilge blower, horn, dash lights, freshwater pump, GPS/sounder, radio. Yanked out a few dead-enders and generally got things (more) orderly. What a mess. Most of the mess was snaking, twisting, knotting 3' leads where 1' or 18" would have done the trick.

Pretty much all that's left connected to the fuse panel are the dash lights, interior lights, and all dash instruments (the working/connected ones are volts, fuel level, temp, oil P, tach, hour meter) and the ignition. When I have my head way up under there and turn the ignition from off to on (not start), I can hear the faintest crackling when I wiggle the key, but can't yet pinpoint the location. Also when I wiggle the key, the voltmeter on the dash wavers just a bit - nothing dramatic, but it moves.

Short? Or could it possibly be as simple as needing a new ignition switch? I'm not holding my breath....

 

[flargin]

Re: Bad Ground?? Please help me stop cursing.

crackling is not good, even faint, and yes, it could be your problem.

on my boat (and I must stress I don't know what your boat is) turning the key to on, just jumpers the I to the B (red/purple to the purple).

You could help identify if the ignition switch is the problem by jumpering them yourself, and overriding the mechanical function of the ignition switch. See if you still have the problems.


Good luck, you are getting closer... at least you have fixed that hornets nest!

 

[Fl_Richard]

Re: Bad Ground?? Please help me stop cursing.

Crackling indicates a bad connection. When it only happens when you turn on the ignition helps.

The ignition supplies power to the engine, the gauges and anthing else in that circuit. So all the gauges get powered up and send their power to ground.

Lights that flicker with the key out indicates they are consuming power and are connected to the same ground as the ignition. (my boat has a ground block that all electonic grounds are connected to and it connects to the battery with a large cable)

My guess is your not tripping an auto reset fuse. These are usually thermal in nature and trip due to heat not amps. If it was a manually resetting fuse you'd be turning it back on.

The clue that when it "trips" eventually it starts working again and the crackling noise leads me to a loose main ground terminal at the ground block or internal corrosion of the wire. Passing current through the ground it starts arcing, eventually the circuit goes open, it sets overnight gets a little cooler, maybe some condensation and the circuit closes.

To diagnose run a wire from the battery ground to the main ground under the dash. I bet the lights stop flickering and the sizzle goes away.

I believe you have a corroded or loose wire my friend

 

[OctoberSea]

Re: Bad Ground?? Please help me stop cursing.

First off, thanks for sticking with me guys... can't tell you how much I appreciate it.

Fl Richard - I believe you're right about the thermal breaker. I've located all breakers that my penta manual tells me exist (with the exception of the one that is supposed to live under the dash...). I tripped it again late last night, and power was back on this morning.

Here's what's connected on to my ignition switch, looking at it from the back side (photo posted below)



On the upper left post: (1) red lead to the fuse panel/bus under the dash, (2) orange lead to the trim tab control (joystick type), (3) red to 12v socket/lighter, and (4) red to one of the clusters/connectors on the wiring harness that runs aft.

On the lower center post: two grounds. (1) running to a second connector on the wiring harness. (2) grounded to the underside of the shift/throttle box. The main ground connection for the fuse panel/bus runs directly to the hydraulic steering housing.

On the upper right post: (1) pink to same harness as (4) above, and (2) purple that runs to a small mystery circuit board that I now call 'The Dangler'... about 2" square with a stout black plastic cylinder mounted to it.

The Dangler has 6 wires running from (to?) it. 3 are dead (one runs to an old abandoned speed gauge). One is the purple lead from the ignition. A brown wire runs to the temp gauge, and a lt blue wire runs to the oil P gauge. I'm assuming that this Dangler is simply powering those gauges. Interestingly, there are other gauges that are otherwise powered... most are daisy-chained off + posts on other gauges, rather than running to the Dangler. Any idea what that Dangler is / what it's doing? Can I cut it out and just run power directly to the gauges from a tab on the bus panel? Photo posted below of The Dangler.



So - back to the grounding system... is it necessary/advisable to have the ignition switch grounded to 2 spots (throttle/shift control box) and the wiring harness? Would I be better off grounding the fuse bus/panel with a direct run back to the negative battery post? After testing as suggested in above posts, do I just run through and clean/repair every ground connection I can find?

BTW, Flargin - that was sage advice under the companion thread to 'not start hacking things off." Sometimes when I get really frustrated, I want to go straight to amputation, then I kill myself with the surgery to reconnect limbs. Thanks for throwing cold water in my face.

 

[flargin]

Re: Bad Ground?? Please help me stop cursing.

No worries on the advice... I have been there before, and I have jumped off that cliff. Only to figure out that the cliff was a lot deeper than I expected

Man you got a lot of stuff under there, but a couple thoughts.

Thermal link. Keep looking for a small box about 1/2" x 3/4", usually steel, it may or may not have a reset button on the outside.

I would say your "Upper Left Post" is your Battery connection. You should have +12v all time on that circuit. #4 is likely the direct link to the battery.. and possibly with the thermal breaker in line.

Upper right, is likely your "Ignition" it will be +12v when your key is "ON".

Your ground... I am thinking you may have jumped the gun there, it may actually be your "Start". When you start, most systems will run through the shifter to ensure it is in neutral, then from their heads back to the motor & the starting solenoid. I might be wrong here, but someplace you have to have
1. power in
2. Ignition
3. Start
ground is really irrelevant on a starting circuit.

I think your dangler is some form of audio warning. For a circuit board, it sure has taken a beating.

Can you reproduce this 'on demand'?

If you can, I would approach the problem this way.
1. confirm Upper left post has 12V
2. Confirm upper right post is Ignition
3. Confirm lower is ground or start

now.
4. reproduce the short/black out, does upper left maintain 12v?
if not you know your link is post your switch.
if so, it is before your switch.
5. Allow to reset.
6. Remove dangler and then try to reproduce the short/black out
if you can. we are getting closer
if not replace dangler and remove pink wire, and try to reproduce.


I believe from your thread, the problem ONLY occurs when you have the key in "ON" position, if so, we should focus on those 2 lines.

I am a little concerned that it may be that circuit board, but the question is why is that in play now. If it only shorts when the motor is running, you may be having overheat, or low Oil Pressure, and that is forcing the dangler to start to come into play (i.e. the horn is shorted, and now it is trying to blow, but it is shorted).

Let me know how you reproduce the problem.

Keep smiling, remember boating is fun, and there is reward at the end when you figure this out.

 

[OctoberSea]

Re: Bad Ground?? Please help me stop cursing.

Super helpful, my good Flargin. Thanks. I'll try just as you suggest tomorrow bright and early. After multiple late evenings of leaving my wife on duty with the 2 yunguns, I simply had to take her out to dinner tonight. Good guy, yeah... BUT... Before I did....

I tested the heck out of the starter switch, and I noted many things that make me think that the problem (or one of the problems) is the switch itself:

I have one battery hooked up right now - pos to the battery switch, and i tested negative using only a lead running from the negative battery post to another spot on the block, just behind the cooling system. I can report that, with both ground locations and with the battery itself at 12.5 v:

1. No light flicker noticed tonight, either with the key on or off. Huh. (suggests bad main ground connection?)

2. Dash voltage gauge with ign switch 'on' reads variable: 11.0, 11.5, then 12.0, frequently with the needle moving +/- 0.25v.

3. Zero volts from either upper post to the lower post that I took to be ground (and that earlier seemed to be functioning as ground with it's connection to the shift control).

4. 10v from either upper post to the fuse panel ground; then 11v, then full 12.5v on another test.

5. 11v from either upper post to the shift control ground, then a full 12.5 on another test.

6. 10v from either upper post to the ground on the hydraulic steering housing, then a full 12.5v on another test.

7. 11.5v from fuse panel (+) to fuse panel (-), then a full 12.5v on another test.

All this with no load on the battery other than my interior lights (so I could watch for flickering or see when I lost all power again, outside of my switch tests...). Between each test, I turned the key off then back to the on position. Wiggles of the key usually made the dash voltage gauge needle wiggle. Before I left the house, I hooked the existing main ground cable back to the battery, took off the temporary lead, turned the key to 'on,' and the dash voltage gauge read a wiggly 11.0v. (+/- ~0.25).

I haven't yet tonight tried to replicate the main power loss, because I wanted to have the power there to be able to read the voltage at the ignition switch.

But, before I go crazy about solving all my problems with an ignition switch replacement, I'm going to run through your test tomorrow and try to learn more about that dangler. Your hypothesis of an audio warning makes sense -that would explain look of the housing and the fact that it was/is connected to various gauges. I'm also going to try FL Richard's suggestion for running a ground lead from the battery to the dash ground and see if that quiets the that faint crackling.

Also, that point of the lower post leads checking the gear position makes sense and is really good to know - this very fool inadvertently tested that fool-proofing feature last summer, and it worked nicely. The reason why I assumed it was a ground was that a couple days ago, I could get a voltage reading on the upper posts by touching the lower post with the negative tip of my multimeter. Tonight, no such reading at all (across either upper post to lower) - another reason why I thought the ignition switch might be failing before my eyes...

Thanks - will report back tomorrow afternoon. Juneau out.

 

[OctoberSea]

Re: Bad Ground?? Please help me stop cursing.

It looks like it's The Dangler.

I should start by clarifying that through today, the only common thread to all instances of completely losing electric power came when I turned the key to start the motor ? not when it was just sitting in the ?on? position. ?On? never killed power, but let me see some weird voltage stuff and hear that ?crackling.?

You were right about the ign switch posts? upper left = power in, upper right = ignition, lower = start.

I couldn't reliably reproduce the power failure today. The only time I managed to kill everything today was during one of the dangler tests with the small gauge homemade ground lead attached to the engine block (I know, I probably shouldn't have tried that...). Every other time, ignition worked and the motor started. BUT...

That faint crackling? Not crackling... it was the sound of intermittent low-volume static coming out of the dangler speaker! So, that is an audible alarm system tied to gauges for fuel, oil P, temp, and voltage. With the alarm attached, voltage was jumpy and all four of those gauges quit working. I didn't notice this before, b/c I never got as far as actually starting the motor before the power cut out. But there it was, motor running with the dangler attached, and none of those gauges worked (actually, worked briefly only during one test). Remove the dangler? Everything works. Reattach the dangler without the purple positive lead from the ignition post? Everything works.

So, right now, the dangler is out of the system, and I'm replacing the ignition switch anyway because I didn't like how wiggling the key wiggled the voltage needle on the dash. And the connection between the dangler and the realized problem was the ignition post. Plus, it?s over 30 years old.

I didn't find the thermal switch yet, but I did find a Hella relay under the plastic main breaker housing on the starboard side of the motor. I don?t know if it?s coincidence or not, but I found/checked that relay right after the only time of blowing all power. Immediately after opening, inspecting, and replacing the relay (an noticing a hint of condensation on the inside cap) ? the power came back on when I turned the battery switch back on. Coincidence? It had been about 20 minutes since the power blew, so it wasn?t necessarily an a-ha moment. But? regarding one of your test points, when the power blew, there was no voltage at the ?power? post on the ignition switch ? so the thermal breaker is somewhere before the switch, which is why I went looking around the motor breakers (the main wiring harness connects in right there).

So, with the dangler out of the picture, the motor starts, all gauges work, and the voltage looks good. Really, really nice job sniffing that one out, Flargin. I am impressed and thankful. Still, my gut is still just a bit uneasy about the prospect of a bad main ground, where this whole thread started. With the dangler cut out and a new ignition switch in, I?ll be testing, testing, testing to see if I can get the power to cut out again.

While I?m at this whole mess with the dash pretty much pulled apart, I?m going to put in a new fuse block, well organized and labeled. Not that a fuse was part of the problem here, but man, it took days just to figure out what was what and what went where.

Any other thoughts? Especially re: the main ground, or just your gut feel on the whole picture? Or any recommendations on a new dangler? I do like the idea of having an audible alarm for those key instruments.

Will post an update when I get the new switch installed and all the wiring back in. You guys rock ? thanks much for getting me this far!

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Bad Ground?? Please help me stop cursing.

This would be a whole lot easier to digest if you referred to the wiring on the ignition switch using the letter codes on the back of the switch. A = accessory, S = start solenoid, B = Battery +, C = choke, I = ignition, M = magneto, etc.

If you have two ground wires on the switch I would begin looking to see why. You never switch a ground wire except for the M (magneto on a two stroke). There also seems to be way too much power being sent through the ignition switch. you have trim tabs and other stuff running through there. Is this factory wiring? If the trim tabs are powered through the ignition switch, the mystery relay may be to control the tabs. The simple test is to disconnect the relay and operate the tabs. And while you are doing that, check to see if you lose power. If not, you have a relay with secondary contacts welded together or a tab motor that is seized. Attack this problem circuit by circuit rather than shotgunning. It takes far less time and energy.

 

[flargin]

Re: Bad Ground?? Please help me stop cursing.

I agree with silvertip. now that you have isolated the S- start is the lower tab of your ignition, we need to figure out why you have 2 lines there, that does not make sense to me.

Also with the Audio alarm/dangler identified as a possible shorting problem, you need to understand what is happening. Personally I have never seen such a beast, anyone seen this before?

If all of your faults came when you started the motor, we should focus there, and then return to figuring out what is up with the audio alarm.

With your starter, can you find out what the two lines are on your Starting Leg? What colors are the wires? I cannot tell from the picture.

Also, Silvertip is correct, if you could restate your results with common names, and also the condition of the ignition switch at the time, that would help A LOT!

Keep up the good work, and yes, keep the lady happy, or you never get boating!!!