Boat Engines - Short Life Spans?

Doc_Vegas

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
Oct 23, 2008
Messages
88
OK, I have already learned a trenmendous amount following this site (thank you!).

However, as someone who does some home mechanical work and who's father built street rods, I have a terrible time understanding the relatively short life spans of boat engines - particularly the small block 350's. From my experience, you can easily get 100k miles out of a 350 if you change the oil and don't beat it to death. I am surprised to read about boats for sale with a few hundred hours and "fresh" or "rebuilt" motor. It makes me worry about those that are not "fresh" and are original.

I realize the boats run higher RPMs, but in a well built small block, it still surprises me to read of so much failure... Any reasons that are not obvious?

Thanks
 

Vert1go

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Sep 26, 2008
Messages
42
Re: Boat Engines - Short Life Spans?

Two reasons:

1. A marine engine endures far greater loads than a car engine. As Mercury used to say, "Cruising at 3500 RPM in your boat is like asking your car to tow a heavy trailer up a steep never ending hill at 80 MPH."

2. Salt water environment - not only in the cooling system, but in general. It's just not friendly for any metals over time.
 

oops!

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Oct 18, 2007
Messages
12,932
Re: Boat Engines - Short Life Spans?

the above post is correct.....


the boat motor runs wide open.....and is allways pushing hard......throttle back and see how fast you slow.......

a well maintained motor can last for years......but....it is allways working hard
 

Bondo

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 17, 2002
Messages
71,082
Re: Boat Engines - Short Life Spans?

Ayuh,...

An SBC can easily last for 2000/ 3000hrs in a boat.... With Proper Maintenance

Most Die from abuse, or more so,.. Neglect.....
 

tashasdaddy

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Nov 11, 2005
Messages
51,019
Re: Boat Engines - Short Life Spans?

most die of a cracked block due to either freezing with water in them, or water coming from a bad manifold. also the confined access space of an i/o, intimidates owners, and then there are owners who "just don't have a clue" as to how to maintain one.
 

SnappingTurtle

Lieutenant
Joined
May 4, 2008
Messages
1,251
Re: Boat Engines - Short Life Spans?

The quickest way to ruin “any” motor is to use it rarely, and not do regular maintenance on it.

New boats are often used a couple of times in the first summer and then parked outside for the winter. The next year if it starts, it is run in the deteriorated condition that it is in, from setting out all winter without winterizing. The next summer it is serviced to a minimum standard. Just enough to get it in the water for a couple of weekends. Then parked again for winter.

Sooner or later the lack of use, combined with the lack of regular maintenance takes it's toll. It is not the boat or the motor that is at fault. It is the lack of use and attention by the owner.

Had this same boat been used year round, spring, summer, fall, and winter, it would not be in the need of a new motor every couple of hundred of hours. You can get thousands of hours out of an often used boat. Look at all the daily use, fishing boats, used only in salt water, still ticking after decades of a hard and heavy lifes.

The fastest killer of any motor is not to use it, and not to do the proper storage maintenance before not using it. Look at how the military prepares their equipment for long term storage. They can put “stuff” away for decades, then pull it out, prepare it, and it is good to go. This only works because they prepared it for longterm storage.

Use your boat, or prepare it properly for non-use, and it can last a lifetime. My small outboard will start with one pull, I guarantee it, right now. It is 27 years old.

I want use it the whole winter, so it is not winterized, and is not stored in a heated environment, but it gets started and ran at least once a week. We haven't dropped below zero yet, but just a couple degrees above it, and even in these temperatures it cranks and runs, like it couldn't be happier to be alive.

Just like your body. :rolleyes: Don't use it, you lose it.
 

45Auto

Commander
Joined
May 31, 2002
Messages
2,842
Re: Boat Engines - Short Life Spans?

As the above posters stated, the majority of marine engines die from neglect and improper maintenance. Most pleasure boats will see less than 50 hours per year of engine time. An engine that is properly maintained and used conservatively will easily last 2000-3000 hours, which is 40 to 60 YEARS of use in a boat! Of course if you like to run WOT all the time, no different from a car running WOT all the time, expect engine parts to go BOOM sooner.

However, there are a couple of critical maintenance points on boats that are not present on cars. Lots of people try to save money by doing their own maintenance. Unfortunately they often try to also save money by not buying (or downloading) a factory manual.

Biggest killer is probably winterization. Can you imagine how many cracked blocks there would be if people had to use straight water in their car cooling system and drain it any time there was a threat of freezing?? That's the situation you have in a boat. If you don't know where all the drains are or know to clean the rust out of them so they CAN drain, you'll probably end up with a cracked block.

Second biggest killer is probably overheating. Waterpump on a car has a metal impellor that doesn't wear out, and if the pump goes bad it's obvious by the puddle under the car. Boat waterpump has a plastic impellor which has to pump sand, rocks, shrimp, or whatever else is in the water. It's lubricated by the water it's in, and people have a bad habit of running the engines OUT of the water and frying the impellor. The plastic has to flex every revolution of the pump, and it gets brittle and breaks up over time. Changing the impellor is a maintenance item not present on a car which is routinely ignored by many boaters until their engine starts smoking ......

Failure to routinely replace expensive exhaust manifolds and risers is probably the third biggest killer. Especially when used in salt water, the iron manifolds naturally tend to rust away internally. First warning many people have is when the engine sucks in water and hydrolocks, hopefully not throwing a rod through the block. Hours of use aren't really a good indicator of condition, pump salt water through it once and let it sit there a few years, don't be surprised if you need new manifolds.

Having salt water leak into an engine is nowhere near as nice as leaking some antifreeze into it. If you get salt water into your engine internals through a blown head gasket from overheating or a leaking manifold and don't realize it or do something about IMMIEDIATLY, then the engine is pretty much history.

Pretty easy to avoid all three of these conditions. Know how to properly winterize, change your impellor every couple of years, and be aware that if you're running iron manifolds you WILL be replacing them sooner or later. They also make rust inhibitors (Saltaway) that you can flush through your system to minimize corrosion. I went with a closed cooling system and ceramic coated aluminum manifolds on my boat to minimize some of the above problems. I also have a water pressure gauge which allows me to keep an eye on the condition of my impellor. I'm going for the 3000 hours on my motor! :)
 

lucid484

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Oct 5, 2008
Messages
175
Re: Boat Engines - Short Life Spans?

Yeah I was just going to add that I know of tons of motors in chris craft commanders that are from the early 70's with 2-3000 hours and STILL run strong! All on how you maintain them and don't abuse them.
 

Silvertip

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Sep 22, 2003
Messages
28,771
Re: Boat Engines - Short Life Spans?

OK folks I ran the numbers and a car is really "babied" compared to engine life in a boat. Consider this set of numbers:

100,000 miles in a car:
Total engine revolutions: 2000 revs/mile = 200,000,000 (that's 200 million engine revolutions in 100,000 miles) and that's even a little high because most cars today run well below this at 60 MPH (one mile/minute).

3000 Hours in a boat:
Consider that on average a boat engine would be running in the 3500 RPM range. 3000 hours = 180,000 minutes of total operation. 180,000 minutes x 3500 RPM = 630,000,000 total revolutions. Even cutting this number in half still is way higher than a car at 100,000 miles. And in addition, the boat is under a great deal more stress than the car. These numbers are the main reason boat service intervals are specified in hours.
 

lucid484

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Oct 5, 2008
Messages
175
Re: Boat Engines - Short Life Spans?

and also don't forget the the engine internals of a boat motor are MUCH stronger than a cars...on cars you can use all sorts of lightweight internals that wouldnt last long at all on a marine engine.
 

SnappingTurtle

Lieutenant
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May 4, 2008
Messages
1,251
Re: Boat Engines - Short Life Spans?

OK folks I ran the numbers and a car is really "babied" compared to engine life in a boat. Consider this set of numbers:

100,000 miles in a car:
Total engine revolutions: 2000 revs/mile = 200,000,000 (that's 200 million engine revolutions in 100,000 miles) and that's even a little high because most cars today run well below this at 60 MPH (one mile/minute).

3000 Hours in a boat:
Consider that on average a boat engine would be running in the 3500 RPM range. 3000 hours = 180,000 minutes of total operation. 180,000 minutes x 3500 RPM = 630,000,000 total revolutions. Even cutting this number in half still is way higher than a car at 100,000 miles. And in addition, the boat is under a great deal more stress than the car. These numbers are the main reason boat service intervals are specified in hours.

Different motors run happy at different RPM's. Most American car engines are high tork, low rev engines.

My car is 13 years old, runs mostly curve rich, hilly German Autobahns. 1100cc motor. Typical cruising RPM is 6000 in fifth gear. Typical highway shifts are made at the redline of 6500.

It now has about/close to 100,000 miles, has had no repairs, but receives regular (double the stated need) maintenance by me, not the dealer, they suck.

It uses not a drop of oil between it's regular oil changes, and just passed Germany's very strict emissions test once again with numbers that are comparable to those of my motor specs, when new.

Would you consider this car motor to be babied, when compared to a boat motor? :D

I treat it just as I have my past motorcycles and outboards. I ran them hard and long, but the maintenance was always double what was called for.
 

Silvertip

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Sep 22, 2003
Messages
28,771
Re: Boat Engines - Short Life Spans?

OOPS -- didn't mean to double post so I'll respond to Snapping Turtle.

Put your 1100 cc engine in a boat and see what the outcome is. No transmission to help you out is there. One can look at the other side of the numbers I just posted as well in that there are lots of GM 350's with 500,000 miles and more on them and also have not been touched. Many of them in trucks. It takes very little HP to maintain 60 MPH in a car so your car is probably using less than 1/3 of its HP to maintain that speed. It takes nearly all of the HP from a 350 V8 to maintain 60 MPH in a boat. Yes -- land based engines are babied when compared to boats. They rarely see prolonged wide open throttle low manifold vacuum, operation whereas boat engines can see that for hours at a time. About the only land based engine stress comparison would be a 600 mile NASCAR race where 5.7 liter motors turn 8500+ rpm for 500 - 600 miles.
 

SnappingTurtle

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Messages
1,251
Re: Boat Engines - Short Life Spans?

OOPS -- didn't mean to double post so I'll respond to Snapping Turtle.

Put your 1100 cc engine in a boat and see what the outcome is. No transmission to help you out is there. One can look at the other side of the numbers I just posted as well in that there are lots of GM 350's with 500,000 miles and more on them and also have not been touched. Many of them in trucks. It takes very little HP to maintain 60 MPH in a car so your car is probably using less than 1/3 of its HP to maintain that speed. It takes nearly all of the HP from a 350 V8 to maintain 60 MPH in a boat. Yes -- land based engines are babied when compared to boats. They rarely see prolonged wide open throttle low manifold vacuum, operation whereas boat engines can see that for hours at a time. About the only land based engine stress comparison would be a 600 mile NASCAR race where 5.7 liter motors turn 8500+ rpm for 500 - 600 miles.

My old big blocks were barely doing more than idling at American highway speeds when I was young, so I understand that to compare them to a boats usage makes no since when it comes to life expectancy.

On the other hand my little Fiats motor red lines at about 115mph in 5th gear at about 6500RPM, but I generally run about 500RPM under that. It will, and very often is, run all day at these conditions. I am coming up on 100,000 miles of such long term use. So I would consider this to be close to what a American V8 boat motor goes through in it's life, if it is properly maintained.

The number of people who said my motor would not last a year under such use, now numbers close to a hundred. Everytime I see one of them, they freak out that is is still running like new.

I do understand your point though, my motor would not last long in a heavy boat, because it was not designed for one. It would also not last long in a heavy car under these conditions. It produces power only at a high RPMs, and has very little low end tork. It would have to be a very light boat for it to be happy.

Motorcycle engines are also happy running for hours at a time in the 8,000 range. My 1983 Yamaha FJ 900 clocked well over a 100,000 miles of such use before being retired, still healthy, to the barn.

I also have two friends here with late 60's Datsun 2000 Roadsters, 2 liter, 150hp, The little motors run happy at 6,000 RPM all day. They have both been doing so for close to 40 years. The cars are run hard daily on the Autobahn and weekend races. Neither gets much more attention than regular maintenance.

I am not sure what my point is, other than to say it is possible to get many years of use out of an engine, even when used hard at a high RPM, if you maintain and don't abuse it. That is, if the motor was originally designed to be used as it is being used.

That leads me to a question.

Are boat motors based on American car engines, really set up properly to be used in boats, or is it just that the American boat manufactures that use them because it is the easiest, cheapest alternative for them? :confused:

Some of these motor designs were not very good when they were first introduced. Many of the smaller inboard motors designs date back decades with little or no real changes or updates. Is it maybe time for the manufactures to do some technological catch up? Just a thought.
 

Silvertip

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Sep 22, 2003
Messages
28,771
Re: Boat Engines - Short Life Spans?

You are still ignoring the "stress" issue. Get moving 10 MPH with your car, slip it into high gear and mash the gas. How often do you think you could get away with that? I would say do that from a dead stop but you'd destroy the clutch. In a boat it happens every time you pull a skier or jump on plane. A car has a transmission -- a boat does not. Not only does the boat have a horrible drag disadvantage, it has no transmission so RPM is not the only factor here. The reciprocating mass on a large V8 is immense and I'm amazed they hold together as well as they do with the abuse they take.
 

MTribe08

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Oct 25, 2008
Messages
680
Re: Boat Engines - Short Life Spans?

As the above posters stated, the majority of marine engines die from neglect and improper maintenance. Most pleasure boats will see less than 50 hours per year of engine time. An engine that is properly maintained and used conservatively will easily last 2000-3000 hours, which is 40 to 60 YEARS of use in a boat! Of course if you like to run WOT all the time, no different from a car running WOT all the time, expect engine parts to go BOOM sooner.

However, there are a couple of critical maintenance points on boats that are not present on cars. Lots of people try to save money by doing their own maintenance. Unfortunately they often try to also save money by not buying (or downloading) a factory manual.

Biggest killer is probably winterization. Can you imagine how many cracked blocks there would be if people had to use straight water in their car cooling system and drain it any time there was a threat of freezing?? That's the situation you have in a boat. If you don't know where all the drains are or know to clean the rust out of them so they CAN drain, you'll probably end up with a cracked block.

Second biggest killer is probably overheating. Waterpump on a car has a metal impellor that doesn't wear out, and if the pump goes bad it's obvious by the puddle under the car. Boat waterpump has a plastic impellor which has to pump sand, rocks, shrimp, or whatever else is in the water. It's lubricated by the water it's in, and people have a bad habit of running the engines OUT of the water and frying the impellor. The plastic has to flex every revolution of the pump, and it gets brittle and breaks up over time. Changing the impellor is a maintenance item not present on a car which is routinely ignored by many boaters until their engine starts smoking ......

Failure to routinely replace expensive exhaust manifolds and risers is probably the third biggest killer. Especially when used in salt water, the iron manifolds naturally tend to rust away internally. First warning many people have is when the engine sucks in water and hydrolocks, hopefully not throwing a rod through the block. Hours of use aren't really a good indicator of condition, pump salt water through it once and let it sit there a few years, don't be surprised if you need new manifolds.

Having salt water leak into an engine is nowhere near as nice as leaking some antifreeze into it. If you get salt water into your engine internals through a blown head gasket from overheating or a leaking manifold and don't realize it or do something about IMMIEDIATLY, then the engine is pretty much history.

Pretty easy to avoid all three of these conditions. Know how to properly winterize, change your impellor every couple of years, and be aware that if you're running iron manifolds you WILL be replacing them sooner or later. They also make rust inhibitors (Saltaway) that you can flush through your system to minimize corrosion. I went with a closed cooling system and ceramic coated aluminum manifolds on my boat to minimize some of the above problems. I also have a water pressure gauge which allows me to keep an eye on the condition of my impellor. I'm going for the 3000 hours on my motor! :)

I'm obvioulsy new around here, and just wanted to say that I thank you and enjoy looking forward to reading your posts. I've learned quite alot in a short time from guys like you and others.

Thanks
 

SnappingTurtle

Lieutenant
Joined
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Messages
1,251
Re: Boat Engines - Short Life Spans?

You are still ignoring the "stress" issue. Get moving 10 MPH with your car, slip it into high gear and mash the gas. How often do you think you could get away with that? I would say do that from a dead stop but you'd destroy the clutch. In a boat it happens every time you pull a skier or jump on plane. A car has a transmission -- a boat does not. Not only does the boat have a horrible drag disadvantage, it has no transmission so RPM is not the only factor here. The reciprocating mass on a large V8 is immense and I'm amazed they hold together as well as they do with the abuse they take.

I wasn't ignoring the stress issue, I was thinking out loud. :)

If I slam my car in top gear from a start on pavement, the pavement doesn't give. If I do it in the water, it does, the water acts as a slowly released clutch. It is a liquid. There is no instant stress on the components.

Maybe, just maybe, there is a problem with the basic concept of car motors that were designed to be used with transmissions, being used in boats without them.

Now do I understand this right? :confused:

The way most inboard boats are set up, without the advantage of a sometimes present, two speed transmission (not typical in American made boats), several hundred hours of use is about right before an engine change or rebuild. This seems like a very costly planned regular maintenance feature.

Are outboards not subject to the same stress? Why can you run them for years without this problem of stress. :)
 

mthieme

Captain
Joined
Oct 6, 2007
Messages
3,270
Re: Boat Engines - Short Life Spans?

OK folks I ran the numbers and a car is really "babied" compared to engine life in a boat. Consider this set of numbers:

100,000 miles in a car:
Total engine revolutions: 2000 revs/mile = 200,000,000 (that's 200 million engine revolutions in 100,000 miles) and that's even a little high because most cars today run well below this at 60 MPH (one mile/minute).

3000 Hours in a boat:
Consider that on average a boat engine would be running in the 3500 RPM range. 3000 hours = 180,000 minutes of total operation. 180,000 minutes x 3500 RPM = 630,000,000 total revolutions. Even cutting this number in half still is way higher than a car at 100,000 miles. And in addition, the boat is under a great deal more stress than the car. These numbers are the main reason boat service intervals are specified in hours.

Wow. Using this logic, I have at least 1/2 million miles on my 'Ray.
I usually get about 300,000 out of my pickup trucks (never due to the motor dying though).
 

45Auto

Commander
Joined
May 31, 2002
Messages
2,842
Re: Boat Engines - Short Life Spans?

from Snapping Turtle:

several hundred hours of use is about right before an engine change or rebuild.

Where did you get that number, Turtle? Very few of the people I know have LESS than 500-600 hours on their engines. Found this article looking around (good article by the way), the NMMA (National Marine Manufacturers Association) says the AVERAGE hours on an engine before rebuilding is 1500. Means there's a lot of them out there with MORE than that on them.

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Article/1483/marine_motors_challenges__opportunities.aspx

from article above:

According to the NMMA, the life of the average marine motor is directly related to the maintenance it receives. The average marine gasoline engine will run for 1,500 hours before needing a major overhaul. The average marine diesel engine will run for more than three times that long and log an average 5,000 hours under the same conditions.
 

triumphrick

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Jun 26, 2008
Messages
1,737
Re: Boat Engines - Short Life Spans?

And with all the above, something more for the doc to consider...and that is an outboard. The two strokes are easy to maintain, never needs winterizing (as long as there is no water in the lower unit) and relatively good power to weight ratio. Also, with the right brands, they seem to do well without a lot of use. The Yamaha 150 on my newest boat only had 63 hours on it after five years. I was warned here to look for rotting lines, fuel problems, bad impeller, electrical corrosion etc, and experienced none of that.
I did put in a new impeller and lower unit oil, but that was all. It shows no signs of distress after sitting for most of it's life.
 
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