Burning piston on cylinder 4

rdeyoe

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Got a 1981 v4 Johnson 140, just rebuilt (all the necessary info here: http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=511125).

Took her out for the some more break-in (two hours of up-and-down on the throttle...just a couple or runs at open throttle), after much checking in our test tank at home. Motor ran great for the initial break-in, save for an open throttle running issue, which turned out to be a semi-kinked fuel line. Motor would go to WOT for 15 seconds, and then feel like it was running out of gas, and run down to 3500 for a few seconds and pick up and go WOT for a few seconds again.

We put an elbow in from the fuel pump outlet to the carb lines and fixed that. Took it out last weekend and the thing practically JUMPED out of the water (and this is a 19' deck boat with and 8' beam...just me and my lady on it this time, light load), and at WOT it was hitting 5400 rpm. We ran it at WOT for about 2 minutes (since it only had a couple of hours on it so far), but on the second WOT run, she died. Decided to let it cool (as it wouldn't start again...besides, the fish were biting!) and got it going, but with a bad miss and no power over 3000 or so.

We putted back to our ramp, about two miles. Brought her home and checked compression. Cyls 1,2,3 were around 120, #4 was maybe 10 psi. I pulled the bypass cover and the rings on #4 were still springing out. Pulled the PH and removed the #4 piston to find that on the piston, opposite the intake ports, the piston had melted and seized the rings. The plug was covered in aluminum flakes, obviously shorting the surface gap plug, as was the piston. All the sharp contours on the piston had burned round, and the piston was covered in the same flaking (grey, not magnetic). The exhaust side of the piston (where the rings were melted into the piston) has serious flaking on the piston crown. The newly bored cylinder walls were scuffed, but not bad. I've honed them and they have good cross-hatching and no grooves. We've replaced the piston (my girl is quite the mechanic, needle bearings in a connecting rod, she's got the touch for them!) and I think it'll seal well.

My question is, why? I'm looking over the forums and looking for common causes, and I'm going to look at the carb jets for that cylinder. I rebuilt the carbs last year, maybe some junk in the jet? There is no filtering in the fuel lines other than the screen in the fuel pump. Should I add a filter in the lines before the pump? We have both heads off and the other pistons have a light coating of carbon on them, but the #4 looks like it might have been lean...a little carbon, but not much and dry when we removed it. It was a VRO engine, but that has all been removed, and we're pre-mixing at 25:1 for the break-in.

I've read about "double firing", and I have the flywheel indexed. Is that a common problem too? What causes double firing? The timer base has been replaced, and the idle timing is set at 4 degrees, although I still need to check the WOT timing.

Sorry for being so lengthy, just want to give all the info I can. I've been an auto and aviation mechanic for years, and know my way around engines. I've heard about the reliability of the the jonnyrude, but to me, they seem very finicky....one small issue can cause major damage. Love the power of the thing though, when it's running right. Was pushing this big boat at 35 (speedo, not GPS yet) with, i think, the only thing in the water was the prop!
 

boobie

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Re: Burning piston on cylinder 4

The two things I can think of to cause this is a lean fuel condition on that cyl or a pack that is going ape on that cyl causing the timing to advance to far. Seen the timing issue before.
 

emdsapmgr

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Re: Burning piston on cylinder 4

Check the positioning of the water deflector around that specific cylinder. Possible it is out of positon. If one of those 4 gets out of position, it will cause that cyl to run hot (same as running lean) and can cause the results you see. Since the head still receives cooling water, you usually won't hear a hot horn-signalling of the the overheat.
 

Haffiman

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Re: Burning piston on cylinder 4

A pic of the damage would give some more hints.
However from description I might suspect water intrusion building excessive temp om that cylinder. Your description of the 'jumping out of water' indicates to me some added power you have not seen before, and that may be reached by water injection. Ignition failures would normally not 'add' power.
 

rdeyoe

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Re: Burning piston on cylinder 4

Thanks all. Appreciate the insight:

@boobie: I'll double check the firing when I get her back together. Is it common for only one cylinder to 'go ape'?

@emdsapmgr: The machinist that did my boring checked the deflectors and said they looked really good. Indeed, even the water passages in the block are very clean, and the deflectors don't look rotted or anything. And, I'm pretty sure they're in the correct places. Hadn't considered water intrusion. Head gaskets are new of course, but maybe the head isn't flat enough. It's a head that I replaced and I think it's been planed, but I'll lay it on the block and see if it wobbles or anything. May as well do both while I'm at it. Like I said, that piston looked kind of dry....maybe it was 'rinsed' off.

@Haffiman: I have some pictures of the piston in and out of the block. I'll try and get them posted tonight. It's been a while since she's been down, but yes, it seems to have a lot of power. Really torquey feeling, maybe it's just my butt dyno telling me that, or optimism, but I don't think it was this strong when we bought it two years ago. It had 120 psi on all cyls back then. Starting seems easier too. When cold, we used to have to crank a good 5 or 7 times, 10 or 15 seconds each, with the primer on to get her to start popping. Then a good couple minutes of running with primer action to warm her up. This weekend was like 3, bumping the primer on and off to warm up for about 30 seconds and then it was a nice smooth idle at ~650 rpm. Shut her down after minimal warm up and just a bump on the starter would fire her up. Power is smooth all the way through the throttle (well, until the piston let go). Since we already had a couple of hours of the ol' up and down throttle, I went straight from idle to WOT and it planed out quickly and held 5400 for a couple of minutes until I brought it down for cooling off. Did this a couple of times, that's when the piston must have melted.
 

boobie

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Re: Burning piston on cylinder 4

Yes , I've seen the timing go ape on one cyl. There's a story involved but to long to tell here.
 

emdsapmgr

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Re: Burning piston on cylinder 4

Have you had a chance to look at the main jet in the carb that feeds #4 cyl yet? The original fuel lines are not rated to handle today's ethanol blend fuels. The hoses can deteriorate and pcs of hose can lodge in the carb jets. I always add a simple inline (white plastic) fuel filter to these older engines and replace all the fuel lines with new ones. Have you checked the jets sizes and compared them to what the factory parts list says should be in the carbs?
 

Haffiman

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Re: Burning piston on cylinder 4

Have you had a chance to look at the main jet in the carb that feeds #4 cyl yet? The original fuel lines are not rated to handle today's ethanol blend fuels. The hoses can deteriorate and pcs of hose can lodge in the carb jets. I always add a simple inline (white plastic) fuel filter to these older engines and replace all the fuel lines with new ones. Have you checked the jets sizes and compared them to what the factory parts list says should be in the carbs?

I would guess that with the full power experienced a blocked jet is not likely the cause a that would mean reduced power?
Why was it rebuilt in the first place?
Has the real reason for the first breakdown been found?
Could it be a leaking cylinder liner? (cracked casting surrounding the liner)
With timing out on one cylinder to an extend that it melts down the piston, the idle would not be smooth at 650. It would have to be so much advanced that one will experience a crank case combustion (sneezing).
Will be interesting to see.
 

boobie

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Re: Burning piston on cylinder 4

The timing going ape comment concerned it doing at WOT only.
 

rdeyoe

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Re: Burning piston on cylinder 4

@boobie: I didn't get the chance to check the WOT timing. It may have been too advanced...will definately be taking a look at that first WOT I get to do.

@Haffiman: The rebuild was because rings in three cyls let go (pin migration in pistons). I can't see any cracks in the cylinder liner, and the machinist seemed to think they were good too. The idle was very nice with all four firing, occasional sneeze.

@emdsapmgr: I rebuilt the carbs last year, rebuilt the fuel pump and replaced all the lines from the tanks to the engine. We have a place here that I can get ethanol free fuel, so that's what I'm running (since the new lines anyways). I haven't had the chance to take out the jets in the carbs yet...probably tomorrow night.

Here's some pics. This is with only ~3 hours of runtime since the rebuild. The #4 cylinder is honed and smoothed out nicely (the scuffing wasn't bad...mild honing cleaned it up well).

no2_no4.jpgno1_no3.jpgintake_crown.jpgflaking.jpgburned_rings.jpg


The flaking is aluminum, non-magnetic, comes off easily and breaks up. The rings are melted on the exhaust side, which is why checking them through the intake covers didn't indicate broken rings (still bounced back when pushed). The crown is quite rounded, as well as most of the sharp edges. The center contour on the exhaust side (spark plug area) is much lower than the new piston. Figuring that's where all the flakes came from. There is barely any carbon coating on this piston compared to the others (which don't have much either, low run time I'm thinking). The plugs are champion surface gaps UL77V, per the manual.
 

Haffiman

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Re: Burning piston on cylinder 4

Your attachments not working. Load on Photobucket and post the link.
Probably not a crack in the liner, but if crack in the aluminum surrounding the liner, it might be a problem.
 

Haffiman

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Re: Burning piston on cylinder 4

From pic #4 I would say water intrusion as the hole piston crown seems to be overheated.
 

rdeyoe

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Re: Burning piston on cylinder 4

Thanks Haff. Most common place for intrusion? Head gaskets, I would think. Perhaps exhaust manifold / mid-section gaskets? I'll double check the cylinders and liners, but I' pretty sure they're solid.

Seems to me like a lean condition. In the comparison shots with the other cylinders, the others look more "moist" than this one. The cyl walls were drier, and the piston doesn't look like it was accumulating as much carbon as the others. As you can see, the water deflectors are in good shape and correct postions. I'm "leaning" (sorry) more toward a lack of fuel condition. It did run the carbs low when that fuel line was kinked.
 

emdsapmgr

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Re: Burning piston on cylinder 4

A couple of comments: you should degree the flywheel for #4, just as #1 and #2 are degreed. Check the timing on #4 to make sure it is not advanced compared to #1,2. You did not show a pic of the head face on that side. If the head was re-used from a prior failure, it may have had pits and dents in it. If so, they can cause hot spots and detonation similar to what you are experiencing. I note the piston next to #4 is .064 over. Usually when you oversize beyond .030, it is customary to increase the main jet sizes to compensate for the extra displacement.... It this #4 piston also .064 over?
 

rdeyoe

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Re: Burning piston on cylinder 4

emdsapmgr: The engine was rebuilt for ring failure due to ring pin migration on a couple of cyls. They were already at .030 over. I was able to go to .040 on three of them, but the #2 was too gouged, so it's a .064 Wiseco now. That's why I have an extra .040 on hand, bought a complete set before machining the block and finding out I needed one big one.

The head on the #2-#4 side was replaced as it was pitted in both cyls, and had chunks of ring embedded, with a good used piece from Mar-fab (FWIW, my machinist worked for Mar-fab, I'm only a couple hours from Sparta TN. Great guy, and a hell of a machinist.). The other head wasn't replaced, just cleaned up some nicks / sharp edges in the #1 cylinder....#3 head was fine. I may still replace the #1-#3 head later, if i can source a good part. These heads (326502 and 326503) are apparently sought after and hard to find in decent condition.

On the jets: I haven't taken them back out to check sizes, but they're all probably standard. BRP shows a 67c size for the high speed ones. How big should I go on the .064 bore? Maybe I should go a couple of sizes on the #4 also...perhaps a couple sizes larger on all of them?
 

Haffiman

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Re: Burning piston on cylinder 4

I would have removed pistons and crank, put the heads back on, made an adapter plate to seal of at the base. Then heated the block to 200F in an oven, filled with water and some blue color and pressurized to 30PSI. Would not have been surprised if noticing seepage around the #4 intake ports. Not exactly a kitchen bench job, but should be possible for the guy that machined it out for you.
 

rdeyoe

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Re: Burning piston on cylinder 4

Whoa haff! That sounds like a heck of a procedure. Is seepage around the intake ports very common? Any other way to determine it? And if it is, do I just throw away this block? Already got a lot of $ and time invested in it.....
 

emdsapmgr

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Re: Burning piston on cylinder 4

Good that you replace the head on #4 side. Probably the right thing to do. You can run standard jets on oversize pistons up to .030 over. When you get to .040 and higher, you may want to go up one jet size. Also will be interesting to see what you find regarding the jets that feed #4. It remains interesting that the head should not be the issue, and the jets (if wrong size) surely would have caused an issue with the .064 over piston first...but that one looks fine. Which brings me back to checking the timing. Always possible there is something wrong inside the power pack on that #4side. Could be firing too early. Check the timing on #4 when you get it back together before you fire it up the first time.
 
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Faztbullet

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Re: Burning piston on cylinder 4

Thats a ignition problem that damaged that piston......
 
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