Carbed 2 strokes future.... grandfathered status?

cggcpa1

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
Nov 19, 2003
Messages
75
I was wondering what possible issues would I have if I bought a new carbed 2 stroke today. What would be the future ramifications? Will be excluded from using it in specific places? Will I get a "grandfathered" status? What if any things will I be excluded from? Im just unclear about this.. any comments to clairify will be appreciated guys.
 

JB

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Mar 25, 2001
Messages
45,907
Re: Carbed 2 strokes future.... grandfathered status?

There are already places where any 2 stroke is banned, Cggcpa, and others where carbed 2 strokes are banned. Those are all pretty much local laws and I expect them to spread. I wouldn't trust CA not to ban powerboats altogether.<br /><br />Emissions requirements will eventually ban the sale of carbed 2 strokes most places. Whether that will ban the resale remains to be seen.<br /><br />Take CB Radios as a possible forecaster. When the 40 channel standard was passed, sale of new 23 channel transceivers was banned, then sale of used 23 channel transceivers. You still see them at flea markets, but it is technically illegal to sell them.<br /><br />I doubt that any laws will forbid us to use carbed 2 strokes that we bought when they were (are) legal, except local laws that forbid their use at specific places.<br /><br />DFI 2 strokes seem to be comparable to EFI 4 strokes in pollution control.<br /><br />Good luck. :)
 

cggcpa1

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
Nov 19, 2003
Messages
75
Re: Carbed 2 strokes future.... grandfathered status?

Come on guys give me some thoughts.... For me its a purchase of either a carbed 2 stroke or a four stroke in the 200 / 225 hp range in the near future. I like the "mature" technology of carbed 2 strokes, and the economic reality. I do not however want to get into a deal where its is "probable" that I will be excluded from boating in certian areas because of a carbed 2 stroke. I plan to run this motor over a 10 yr period, so future "rules and regulations" are an important concideration. I do have the benefit of living and boating in the Southeast where the "California " emission laws are probally years away....... Just looking for more opinions.....
 

JB

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Mar 25, 2001
Messages
45,907
Re: Carbed 2 strokes future.... grandfathered status?

Oh, excuse me.<br /><br />I guess I don't know what thoughts are.
 

roscoe

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
21,754
Re: Carbed 2 strokes future.... grandfathered status?

Did they ban the use of all used cars when they raised the emmission standards a few years ago? No.
 

AUGIDAWG

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Oct 31, 2002
Messages
189
Re: Carbed 2 strokes future.... grandfathered status?

The owner of one of the local Johnson dealerships here in California, is on the committee that is debating the future emmision control laws with the State and Federal commissions.<br />From what he knows from all of the meetings he has attended, this is the way they are going to deal with the future of banning 2-strokes from certain lakes, and the manufacture of new 2-strokes.<br /><br />They are using the "Lake Tahoe" emmision requirements as the standard for other lakes in the state that are drinking water sources. I think there are a total of only 3 including Lake Tahoe. They allow 2-strokes but they must be of the "direct injection" design, and 4-strokes must be "fuel injected". No carburators on outboards or personal water craft at all. Inboards I'm not sure about.<br /><br />They are pressuring the manufacturers of outboards to elliminate all carburators by the year 2006, and are pushing for the direct injection as being the only design for 2-strokes after 2006. A lot of the engines made now meet the 2006 standards, but not required. By 2007, they may change the emmission requirements even furthur.<br /><br />They will not ban previously built and sold carburated 2-strokes, except for the lakes that are drinking water sources such as Lake Tahoe.<br /><br />They figure by natural attrition, the old 2-strokes will wear out and die, and your replacement engine will be a clean burning injected 4-stroke, or a direct injected 2-stroke.<br /><br />If a dealer is buying carbed 2-strokes now to put on his sales floor, he better be sure he is going to unload it before January 2006.<br /><br />Bottom line: You just can't say for sure that every lake may become a "drinking water source", and if you own a carbed 2-stroke, you can use it in your bath tub.<br /><br />If I were going to buy a new engine, I would play it safe, and buy a 2006 emmission certified fuel injected 4-stroke. Spend the money now, and never worry about what Uncle Sam is going to do.
 

RatFish

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 29, 2003
Messages
647
Re: Carbed 2 strokes future.... grandfathered status?

Thanks for the info AUGIDAWG.<br /><br />I know the new regulations are better for the environment but I'm cash strapped as it is. I'm just gonna keep "Old Betsy" running as long as I can. Maybe I'll die before she does. Hmmm... Yea... That's it... I just make sure I kick off first. Problem solved!
 

cggcpa1

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
Nov 19, 2003
Messages
75
Re: Carbed 2 strokes future.... grandfathered status?

JB,<br />I didn't mean for you take it that way... I greatly value the input of the "Ancient Mariner" I was just hoping for some more posts.... :)
 

AUGIDAWG

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Oct 31, 2002
Messages
189
Re: Carbed 2 strokes future.... grandfathered status?

When I learned of this information last year, I still opted to buy my 95' carbed Johnson because I was cash strapped. (if you were strapped with cash, wouldn't that mean you had pleanty? oh, never mind)<br /><br />The new engines were about $12,000-$13,000.<br />I picked up the boat-motor-trailor for $11,000, and it was in almost new condition. A simular new rig would have cost me near $33,000.<br /><br />So, I made the decission, that I would most likely never tow my boat all the way uphill to Tahoe, and the other 2 lakes are just puddles anyway. The risk was if the whole state turned restricted. I really doubt if the bay and ocean would become off-limits in the next 10 years, so I would always have somewhere to go. By the time I need a major rebuild, the laws might change, I'll drop the $13,000 or more to upgrade to a new design instead of investing $3000 in a rebuild, and sell the carcuss to someone in Mexico where these kind of laws will never exist.<br />I will still be $10,000 ahead of the game.
 

kd6nem

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 25, 2003
Messages
576
Re: Carbed 2 strokes future.... grandfathered status?

Doggone it, you're right Augidawg. I was hoping my carbureted 4 stroke Bearcat would be Tahoe legal. But looking here, I eventually found it is not, since it is carbureted. I guess I don't have quite as much advantage as I thought with my Bearcat after all, though I still like the concept and have no regrets about going that way.<br />This is the link to the California red tape for two strokes and MTBE fuel standard:<br />http://www.dbw.ca.gov/mtbe.htm <br /><br />Of course, it could be viewed as a "dual point vacuum operated fuel injectors", right?.... :D <br /><br />I knew a senior regional air resources board official who flat admitted to me that the standards were arbitrary. He told me that they simply set the allowable levels to about half the then current minimum detectable levels, and tend to continue the same process whenever the standards are updated. They honestly have no idea with many contaminant levels whether the level is within any significant risk range or not. So when will we know we have way gone way farther than necessary? Apparently we'll never know. I suppose this is better than continuing to poison ourselves, at least. But I still grumble about how a lot of things are handled out here. Out of balance, more often than not. And at great expense to our economy, too.<br /><br />The State promises that no further actions will be taken against 2 cycle outboards. Why is it that I have all the confidence in the world in our politicians and bureaucrats... that they will change their mind on that, too.
 

AUGIDAWG

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Oct 31, 2002
Messages
189
Re: Carbed 2 strokes future.... grandfathered status?

Whewww!<br /><br />You had me scared for a minute.<br /><br />When I first started reading on that site, it said there were 11 lakes in California where 2-strokes were banned. I thought for a minute that they had increased the number from 3 to 11 in just one year. But, after reading furthur, it is the personal water craft that were banned. But, they did add a few lakes up around Tahoe. No biggie.<br /><br />Thanks for the web site.<br /><br />Some of the lakes around here require a receipt from a non-MTBE gas station that is no older than 2 days. But, if I have a 65 gallon tank 3/4 full of MTBE fuel, and top off with ethanol, who would know?<br />Or, if I fill up my truck on the way and use that receipt?<br />Not a very robust system.
 

Capt. T

Seaman
Joined
May 21, 2003
Messages
62
Re: Carbed 2 strokes future.... grandfathered status?

Augidawg & Bearcat<br /><br />Maybe living in WI halfway to north pole isn't so bad after all. Short season but atleast we don't have to put up with the nonsense you folks have to. Of course, someday our DNR will catch up on these regs too.
 

rcupp

Cadet
Joined
Nov 13, 2002
Messages
17
Re: Carbed 2 strokes future.... grandfathered status?

reading this you can see why California is in so much trouble.
 
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