Considering upgrading this season - prop exchange programs

Stinnett21

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Jun 24, 2012
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Considering undergoing a prop upgrade this season. I understand the technical aspects of prop optimization but what I have not experienced is the in/outs of dealing with prop retailers. If I want to get really dialed in I understand I need a retailer that offers an exchange program. I understand there's typically a fee charged each time an exchange is desired. Just wondering what to expect. How many exchanges does it typically take to get satisfied for anyone who's done this? Do the retailers push back at any point? How accurate have their recommendations been? What if I can't get satisfied within a certain prop family and want to switch, i.e. Enertia to Rev 4? How does the retailer react? Appreciate any input thanks.
 

Texasmark

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James Propeller Service in Carrollton, Tx. is a shop that does that.....did for me. He loans you a prop after a consultation and you put it on, get the numbers and take it off, replacing with your old prop to complete the outing.
Bring the prop back to the shop with the numbers and get another, or be happy with what you have and pay for it. He also has the ability to "tune" your existing prop if you give him your numbers and you discuss where you are and where you want/need to be in prop performance.

Some shops, in salt water areas in particular, don't swap because once in Salt Water, corrosion sitting on the shelf is a problem...per comments from one such shop. Online retailers only take returns if it hasn't been installed....if they take returns at all.
 

Sea Rider

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Why would you like to go for a prop maximization, not happy with current prop ? If wanting going that route need to state which HP motor, boat type, usual number of passengers on board, prop type, number of blades and max wot rpm achieved dialed with a tach as loaded on flat calm non wind water cond.

Then will know if current prop is working right and motor revving happyly around middle to max wot rpm range factory stated.

Happy Boating
 

dingbat

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James Propeller Service in Carrollton, Tx. is a shop that does that.....did for me. He loans you a prop after a consultation and you put it on, get the numbers and take it off, replacing with your old prop to complete the outing.
Some shops, in salt water areas in particular, don't swap because once in Salt Water, corrosion sitting on the shelf is a problem...per comments from one such shop.
Nothing but an excuse.....props don’t corrode sitting on shelves.
Online retailers only take returns if it hasn't been installed....if they take returns at all.
Have used an unnamed on-line retailer twice when testing props. No problem returning as long as prop isn’t damaged
 

Stinnett21

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Jun 24, 2012
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Thanks guys, all good info. Actually I'm relatively happy, just wondering what could be. I'm currently slipping 16% at cruise which a lot and I mainly cruise so my goal would to get that number down. I'm currently turning 100 rpm over max for engine at 51 mph so I'm right where I need to be. It's just an old tech prop (Mercury Vengeance) so I'm thinking there is room for improvement...maybe. I do notice that some of the sellers websites say if it touches the water it's not returnable...ouch. I can't imagine if it's undamaged and completely cleaned up and I commit to buying something that they wouldn't grant the return.
 

Sea Rider

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That boat should plane fast, +100 wot rpm exceeding max range it's nothing. For the prop pros : Would installing a higher pitch prop to rev at wot around middle rpm range decrease current 16% slippage when at cruising speed ?

Happy Boating
 

Texasmark

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Nothing but an excuse.....props don’t corrode sitting on shelves.

Have used an unnamed on-line retailer twice when testing props. No problem returning as long as prop isn’t damaged
Yeah it was an excuse but like fishing lures in my tackle boxes I can tell the difference in the plugs for salt water in that box and the ones for freshwater in that box. I may have been talking to an iboats prop guy as I buy some on here.
 

QBhoy

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Prop slip like that at cruise is probably really good, to be honest. What is it at full throttle ?
 

QBhoy

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Keen to hear what your numbers are full throttle and what boat and engine combo you have. What pitch etc now.
The vengeance can certainly be improved on for sure, as you say. I can’t think of an occasion when the vengeance has actually performed better than the standard ally black max the same pitch, on boats I know of.
All I’d say is that I’ve been blown away with the enertia for out and out top end on my boats. But I’ll admit that it’s not as perfect as I thought all round. The tempest plus taught me this last year. The more I use my tempest prop, the more I admire it. It’s just so good mid range and for efficiency mid range too. And compared to anything else but the enertia, it’s incredible too end too.
The rev 4 from what I know of them is an incredible thing too. But only really on boats that are heavy and have huge power to swing them. A 4 blade will always be a compromise on performance compared to a 3 blade. Just on physics alone. But the Rev 4 and bravo 4 blades do a serious job on performance for such a compromise. If you don’t have a big heavy hull with big power and the need for a 4 blade...stick to a 3 blade, I’d say. One thing to think about is that there is certainly a difference to the way the tempest behaves compared to your vengeance...pitch for pitch. The tempest and to a lesser extent, the enertia...will almost behave like an extra inch in pitch, in my experience. Same goes compared to a laser 2 or black max. To explain a little further. Without looking up exact details...your average black max, vengeance or laser 2 19” prop will be around 13.75” to max 14” diameter by 19” pitch. The 19” tempest will I have will be about 14.25” or maybe even more. Can’t quite remember now. The Rev 4 19” I assume will be the same or larger. Big blades and lots of lift from them. This means they usually have a lower rpm cruising than the usual 19” prop. But to confuse thing further...that can often be cancelled out at the top end...given the hull lift they can have...meaning that they can sometimes allow equal or more rpm at full throttle...with more speed too, of course.
The enertia again is a funny one. They are made of the X7 alloy metal. I’d guess that they are around a 1/4 to a 1/3 the weight of a same pitch vengeance or laser 2 perhaps. Meaning they can be easier to spin than usual. Lots to think about. But for sure. You’ll need to try a few out. Said it a few times by now...but I’ve been known a tempest of 2” less pitch to show less rpm than a 4 blade ally prop...along with an increase in speed by around 5/6 mph at the top end.
 

Sea Rider

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Prop slip like that at cruise is probably really good, to be honest. What is it at full throttle ?
Has prop slippage something to do with say bad motor/transom height matched, excessive trim or a cocktail of both situations ?

Happy Boating
 

QBhoy

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Has prop slippage something to do with say bad motor/transom height matched, excessive trim or a cocktail of both situations ?

Happy Boating
Could do. Haven’t ever thought to look at what my prop slip is at cruise...but I’d imagine it won’t be much better than 16%. I can get down to around 3/4% at absolute best on the quick boat and about 7 on the cuddy...but at WOT and perfect conditions. I’ll look and see what it is at cruise now. I’ll have some numbers to put in for sure. Standby.
 

QBhoy

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So just
Has prop slippage something to do with say bad motor/transom height matched, excessive trim or a cocktail of both situations ?

Happy B
Has prop slippage something to do with say bad motor/transom height matched, excessive trim or a cocktail of both situations ?

Happy Boating
So just put in some details for the Chase. I was aware of the following for wot for sure. But never put in the cruise details to see. As follows;

Wot prop slip
5150 rpm
1.47 ratio
21” prop
Gps speed 67 (has done 67.7 a few times but stick to 67 for now)
Prop slip 4%

cruise prop slip
2200 rpm
1.47 ratio
21” prop
Gps speed 25mph (only confirmed detail I have for sure to compare rpm and speed)
Prop slip 16%

So even a boat as efficient as this at wot has a slip of 16% at cruise. I’d suspect most other normal boats would be much bigger perhaps. Lots of hull in the water. Or perhaps mine isn’t that great on slip at all, being that it’s not on the pad like it is at wot...or the air apex induction system on the hull isn’t taking in air under hull at that. She is very wide for a fast boat too, I suppose. Suppose it depends on what is considered cruise speed. I know my boat is best on fuel nearer to 30 mph. But don’t have any confirmed details on rpm for that speed I’m afraid.
 

Stinnett21

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Thanks for all the input guys. Tbh I didn't intend for this to turn into a "what prop is best for me" thread. I won't get into my prop wallet at least until mid summer after the debris clears the lake. Just bored (yes snowed in) and wondering what to expect from the prop outlets/exchange programs. However I much appreciate the knowledge. Here's my current set up:
Boat: 2002 Bryant 214 (the one in my pic)
Engine: 2002 Merc 5.0 MPI RPM range 4600-5000
Drive: Alpha 2, 1.62 gears
Current prop: Mercury Vengeance 14x19
3000 rpm, 28 mph @ 16% slip
4000 rpm, 39 mph @ 12% slip
WOT 5100 rpm, 51 mph @ 10% slip (all speeds are GPS)

As I said in post 5 I'm very satisfied but just wondering what could stand to be gained if any. QBhoy you tweaked my interest awhile back talking about the success you've had with the higher end Merc props. That's interesting your cruise slip is the same. Well...maybe the ol' Vengeance ain't so bad, at least for my setup.
 

JimS123

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As I said in post 5 I'm very satisfied but just wondering what could stand to be gained if any. QBhoy you tweaked my interest awhile back talking about the success you've had with the higher end Merc props. That's interesting your cruise slip is the same. Well...maybe the ol' Vengeance ain't so bad, at least for my setup.
My Whaler has a Vengeance. It runs the boat to max spec RPM, the speed is just fine and the fuel usage is as good as my former tinny / 2-stroke. Maybe I could do better, but I don't see the need. I'm happy. No prob.

My SeaRay came from the factory with a 14x19 Black Max. The RPMs were correctly dialed in, the top speed was awesome and I was happy there as well. Nevertheless, even though it was "OK", I prefer the durability of SS.

I switched to a Mercury Enertia, same pitch. I lost about 100 rpm, but I gained 3 mph top end, reduced fuel usage by about 10%, planed at a lower speed and the slip at WOT went from 15 to 8. Best $650 I ever spent.

I wasn't looking for an improvement, I was just trying to mitigate the little stones in the sandbar we frequent. I switched to SS about 30 years ago and haven't repaired a prop since. I didn't want to start now.
 

Stinnett21

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Wow that's awesome Jim on the Enertia. How did you get dialed in to correct Enertia? Did you make an educated guess and go for it or did you work with an exchange program?
 

JimS123

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Wow that's awesome Jim on the Enertia. How did you get dialed in to correct Enertia? Did you make an educated guess and go for it or did you work with an exchange program?
Based on the data I had, and a lot of internet research, I took a guess at what pitch I needed. No local dealers had an exchange program, so I just took the lowest internet price for the part number I wanted.

My rpms with the Black Max was right at the max, I figured the Enertia would reduce it a bit, and it did. It was still close enough, and with the way that sucker jumps out of the water I don't think I could do any better.
 

Texasmark

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My 2c, following your and Jim's dialogue is that Jim's research told him that the Enertia was a more agressive prop and as such would load the engine more dropping the RPMs....question would be how much. Then the efficiency factor plays into the equation in that with the prop grabbing water better, the thrust was increased as a function of RPMs and that and the apparent ability of his engine to maintain it's torque valued (flattened torque curve as a function of RPM), this propelled the boat faster which reduced the wetted area which reduced the load on the prop shaft allowing RPMs to increase somewhat, offsetting the reduction in torque giving him the 3 mph top end boost and only loosing 100 RPMs in the process.

Like is well known, you don't know how your rig is going to perform till you install the prop and put it through its paces.....everything else is just a crap shoot! Obviously I am bored, cabin fever has long past set in and I am just killing time waiting for it to warm up.
 

QBhoy

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Totally agree with the above. It’s a total unknown until you try one. The good thing is the enertia comes in 1” increments. The enertia will usually drop a little rpm over a laser 2 or smaller diameter prop like that, being quite aggressive. But if you have a hull and power that can lift from the water considerably, like mine...I found that the rpm can balance out at the top end too. More lift, less load and more rpm can be the result. The tempest is similar. Will show lower rpm all through the rpm range and at the top on most boats...but on some boats...can equal out at the top end occasionaly with hull lift.
I only had the Chase out once last year and only had the tempest on it then. First time I’d tried it from memory. Was so impressed with it. It hit the limiter very easily, being too small a pitch for the Chase, but still saw well into the 60’s gps. The enertia will see just shy of 68 mph gps, at its best. Tempest better on fuel cruising though.
 
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