Crazy ignition issues, 1988 Johnson 225

[beamer]

I have been trying to diagnose an ignition/spark problem.

I used a T/S guide at CDI to try to get ideas but have not figured out for sure what the problem is.

The problem started with spark only on the right bank of the motor. I tried to swap the 4 and 2 wire connectors to see if the side swapped and then no fire at all, even after I put it back together.

Today, I go to work on it again and was testing the ignition switch first for voltage going back. It was fine and I found a very weak wire for the lanyard safety switch. After I repaired that, I had fire, and on all 6 cylinders. BUT ! ! ! only when the key was in the starting position with the starter engaged. The motor would actually run just fine, the bendix would drop dowm, but continue to spin until the key switch let off of start and the motor would shut off.

I verified that the keyswitch was operating properly. I am not too familiar with boat ignitions, but apparently the start switched power goes to the power pack and according to my book, it is a yellow-red wire. Looking at the diagrams, it looks like the #2 (purple wire) terminal is the ignition power and it has 12+ volts when the switch is in the on position. I then disconnected the yellow-red wire to see if it would fire and run still, and it did not. After I connected it back up, I had no fire anymore at all.

I am thinking the power pack may be bad actually and is acting up. I do not want to spend $200 and it not be the problem, and knowing I cant return it.

Does anyone else have some clues or info to help me properly diagnose this issue?


thanks in advance,
Mike

 

[SparkieBoat]

Re: Crazy ignition issues, 1988 Johnson 225

you need to check your switch and make sure it is wired properly also check for bad connections and the kill wire is not grounding out.

 

[beamer]

Re: Crazy ignition issues, 1988 Johnson 225

The boat has been out in the water a few times since the switch was replaced, I expect it to be good. I did meter out what I understood to be how it works and it seems to be fine. I have lugs with 12V in, 12V out in start, 12V out in run, 12V out when choke is pressed, a ground lug and another lug that the "kill" switch connects into. If the kill switch is what you are referring to is the safety device that a lanyard usually attaches to the driver, that was good as if I took it off, the motor would not fire at all.


I am really curious if anyone has experienced or heard of this happening from a power pack going out. We are going to try to fire it up again tonight to see if it will after it had time to "cool" down. I know electrical items will act up when they have been on for a while and then work again.


Thanks for your reply SparkyBoat !


Mike

 

[Faztbullet]

Re: Crazy ignition issues, 1988 Johnson 225

Sound more like timer base is failing .....

 

[beamer]

Re: Crazy ignition issues, 1988 Johnson 225

Sound more like timer base is failing .....

Thanks Faz...

Please explain more. I am boat motor dumb. I am not sure what a timer base is and what it does and could be doing to cause this issue. I am trying to understand, please understand my questioning.




Mike

 

[SparkieBoat]

Re: Crazy ignition issues, 1988 Johnson 225

it is under your flywheel and under your stator. it controls your timing, sends low voltage to powerpack, test are in the CDI trouble shooting guide, you will HAVE to have a DVA adapter.

 

[clanton]

Re: Crazy ignition issues, 1988 Johnson 225

You should check the shift switch. If it sticks will kill port 3 cylinders. If the ignition switch is the correct one, and wires connected correct.
Time for a DVA meter. The reason it will start and run with the switch in the run position is it is holding the timer and pack in the Quick Start position. Which could be the timerbase or the power pack.

 

[beamer]

Re: Crazy ignition issues, 1988 Johnson 225

You should check the shift switch. If it sticks will kill port 3 cylinders. If the ignition switch is the correct one, and wires connected correct.
Time for a DVA meter. The reason it will start and run with the switch in the run position is it is holding the timer and pack in the Quick Start position. Which could be the timerbase or the power pack.

The timer base would be most likely not to be the problem if it would fire in the quick start position, wouldn't it? I am thinking that the timer base is a syncronizing device for when to fire which cylinder. Or is it more than that? I understand the blue, green and purple wires for each of the 3 cylinders. But exactly what is the white wire for? I read that it carries the voltage and also supplied a ground. How can that be? This marine stuff confuses me.

As for a DVA needed to test the TB, what do they cost? Can they be rented anywhere? I have multimeters out the wazoo, but am not in possession of a DVA. I will look them up to get a better idea of what they are.


I really appreciate your inputs and help.



Mike

 

[boobie]

Re: Crazy ignition issues, 1988 Johnson 225

On that mtr the shift switch will kill the starboard three cylinders. You could also have a bad power coil on the stator which will have to be checked out with the proper meters.

 

[beamer]

Re: Crazy ignition issues, 1988 Johnson 225

On that mtr the shift switch will kill the starboard three cylinders. You could also have a bad power coil on the stator which will have to be checked out with the proper meters.

When we had one bank running, it was the STBD bank. The port bank had no fire. A week later when we went to work on it, I found a possible weak wire from the safety kill switch to the ignition and repaired it. We then had fire on all 6 cylinders when the ignition key was in the start (cranking) position only.

I disconnected the Yellow-red wire (which is the "start" signal feed to the power pak) and then had no fire, even after I re-connected it again.



Thanks again for the ideas.



Mike

 

[daselbee]

Re: Crazy ignition issues, 1988 Johnson 225

The pack sources voltage and provides a return to the pack on the white and black wires. Note that one side of the timerbase leads has a white wire, and the other side has a black wire.
That is the voltage/current supply and return for the timerbase. Timerbase is a complex device containing active electrical components.

You are correct regarding the blue, purple, and green wires. On each side, the blue wire is for the top cylinder, the purple wire is for the middle cylinder, and the green wire is for the bottom cylinder. Open up any of these wires, and the associated cylinder will drop.

Open up either the white or the black wire, and no spark at all.

Clanton is correct regarding the yellow/red. When you have the key in start position yellow/red is hot at +12 volts, which tells the pack, "OK...new start happening now....switch into Quickstart mode." When you let off the key, yellow/red is not hot anymore, and according to you, the engine dies.

I don't think you will be able to diagnose this with a DVA meter. The two components (timerbase and pack) are interrelated, and the tests for each part kind of assume that the parts are "separate". I don't know if you follow me here....hard to describe. As much as I hate to say it, and I DO hate to say it, I think your best bet is to swap in known good components...timer base and pack. Pack first, as you don't have to take off the flywheel, then timerbase.

If you have the flywheel off, I would like you to check one thing....the center hub magnets. You will see a magnet ring around the center hub of the flywheel. It will have two thin slots in it. Look very carefully at those slots, and see if there is metallic dirt/powder/crap that has filled up those slots. If so, scrape it out so the slot is clear, and re-try. I am very interested to see if those slots are full of crap, will it affect spark.....Also be absolutely sure that the ring has not spun out of position. They do that.

I will go one further....I have a good timerbase for you to try if you want. I don't have a pack for your year, tho.
PM me with your name, etc, and I will ship it up to you, you can try it, and then ship back. Up to you.

Have you eliminated the boat harness like CDI says to do? Disconnect the big red plug, and crank engine with a remote start switch at the solenoid, or simply jump directly to the starter with jumper cables. If you have good, consistent spark all the time, your problem is back at the key switch, or in the harness. Remember, you will not be able to shut it off, unless you re-plug the red plug or choke it with rags in the carbs.

 

[daselbee]

Re: Crazy ignition issues, 1988 Johnson 225

On re-reading....I think Boobie has a very good point. Power coil on the stator.
That is definitely testable with the DVA meter. That would be the orange pair of wires from the stator to the pack.

 

[SparkieBoat]

Re: Crazy ignition issues, 1988 Johnson 225

dva adapters are cheap, link in my sig below..for goodness sakes spend the $25. you cannot accurately trouble shoot out board electronics with out it. a timer base and power pack can both be properly diagnosed if you follow the instructions in the CDI link below in my sig also. OHM test are unreliable.

 

[clanton]

Re: Crazy ignition issues, 1988 Johnson 225

The timer base has 12 sensors, 6 for Quick Start, 6 for run. Running with key in start position holds the Quick Start on, key in run position timer shifts to run sensors. Pack, timer, power coil work together to control this. Buy the meter do the testing.

 

[boobie]

Re: Crazy ignition issues, 1988 Johnson 225

The power coil wires are orange and orange/black. You can check these with just an ohmmeter. They should show 96 + or - 10 ohms. Don't run the mtr with these wires disconnected.

 

[beamer]

Re: Crazy ignition issues, 1988 Johnson 225

The timer base has 12 sensors, 6 for Quick Start, 6 for run. Running with key in start position holds the Quick Start on, key in run position timer shifts to run sensors. Pack, timer, power coil work together to control this. Buy the meter do the testing.

DVA adapter has been ordered fr testing. thanks to Sparkie for having a link to one. $36 shipped to me, I gotta have one to diagnose this problem.


Thanks everyone for the help.

I will update when I get the adapter and do my testing.




Mike

 

[SparkieBoat]

Re: Crazy ignition issues, 1988 Johnson 225

you will use the adapter more than once, all your friends will now need you to fix their boats too..chargem $25 to DVA test it or a 12 pack if you drink beer.

 

[daselbee]

Re: Crazy ignition issues, 1988 Johnson 225

I will be very interested to know if it actually helps you identify this particular failure. If so, please post how, what, where, when...all the details please. ALL the details.

 

[beamer]

Re: Crazy ignition issues, 1988 Johnson 225

OK, got back in town Friday night and got to work on the motor some yesterday. Broke out the DVA and did not even know what to test with it. I felt stupid.

I did use the CDI troubleshooting guide some. I was not sure of a few items to check. Here is what I found and did not understand...

Step 1: Disconnect the black/yellow kill wires. Same as before - no fire

Step 2: Disconnect yellow wire from stator to rectifier. Did not know where this wire is. Any help locating is appreciated.

Step 3: Check DC voltage on black/white wire going to timer base. I had 6.4 VDC when cranking (good was 6 - 12)

Step 4: Check stator and trigger resistance and DVA output.
Brown > Brown/yellow wire resistance was 1035 and 1085 ohms (should be 900 - 1100 ohms), did not check voltage as I did not know how to.
Orange > Orange/black resistance was 96 ohms (OEM should be 93 - 103), voltage was 23V (should be 12 - 24)
White > Purple wire resistance was 5.5M ohm (typical is 1 - 5M and all 6 should be similar readings), and never saw a voltage when cranking
White > Blue wire resistance was 8.2M ohm (typical is 1 - 5M and all 6 should be similar readings), and never saw a voltage when cranking
White > Green wire resistance was 9.5M ohm (typical is 1 - 5M and all 6 should be similar readings), and never saw a voltage when cranking
White > Purple, 2nd connector resistance was 5.5M ohm (typical is 1 - 5M and all 6 should be similar readings), and never saw a voltage when cranking
White > Blue, 2nd connector resistance was 1.17M ohm (typical is 1 - 5M and all 6 should be similar readings), and never saw a voltage when cranking
White > Green, 2nd connector resistance was .99M ohm (typical is 1 - 5M and all 6 should be similar readings), and never saw a voltage when cranking
White > White/black, 2nd connector resistance was 7M ohm (should be 215 - 225 ohms)



This all points to the timer base being bad.

The next line inside this troubleshooting section says to check the hub triggering magnet in the flywheel. I have no idea what the magnets are and where to check them at. From underneath somehow?

There is also a warning on the troubleshooting guide that says "... it is highly recommended that you check to make sure both the triggering and charge magnets are still secure in the flywheel before you service the engine. A loose or broken magnet can be deadly to you or your pocketbook" This refers back to the last check that I am not sure of. And sounds to be a very dangerous point to ensure before doing any service.


I would like to know what I need to check before moving forward with even ordering a timer base yet as the suspect cause.

The guide also says I should see 150V or more when connected on the Brown > Brown/yellow wire in the first check of the stator and trigger checks. How do I check this in a "connected" state? Maybe probes that poke through the insulation?


Thanks all for your inputs ! ! !



Mike

 

[hidef]

Re: Crazy ignition issues, 1988 Johnson 225

I hope you are using the instructions on page 52 of the CDI guide. The rectifier (Item 57) is under the power pack the yellow and yellow/gray wire runs from the stator charging coils to the rectifier those are the ones you want to disconnect. If you unplugged both yellow/black wires running into the power pack and then lost all spark which you have had previously I would start checking your wiring harnesses and all connectors. The magnets are under the fly wheel. You need to pull the flywheel to inspect them. If you do not have the BRP/OMC factory service manual you need to order one it will help you out greatly. Marineengine.com will have it to you in a couple of days. Do not buy the clymers or seloc manuals.


http://www.marineengine.com/parts/j...n&section=Ignition+System+&+Starter+Motor