DHADLEY or Joe Reeves help!!!

jim_in_day

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ok, my 76 70hp rude has me stumped and I think the problem is a bad one. I changed carbs and can't get it to run right, but before I jumped to the conclusion that I needed to go back to the old carbs, i tried an experiment. With the air horn off, I put my hand over the top carb throat and got a very powerful vacumn but not much change in how the engine ran. Next i did the middle carb the same way with the same result. Finally I did the bottom carb where it immediately bogged down and died. HMMM! So i swapped the top and bottom carbs thinking that if the problem moved it was the carbs. Hand over top carb, strong vacumn but little change in how engine runs. Hand over bottom carb and it immediately boggs down and dies. I have to assume that means it wasn't the carbs, but what does it mean? anything i should look at?
 

Joe Reeves

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Re: DHADLEY or Joe Reeves help!!!

If pressure is being blown out thru any of the carburetor throats, that would indicate a faulty reed plate (leaf valve), however, start trouble shooting with the basics as follows rather than simply guessing and replacing parts.

(Compression & Spark Test)
(J. Reeves)

1st - Regardless of what problem one might encounter, always start with the basic troubleshooting procedure. Check the compression which should be in the range of 100+ psi (somewhat less on the smaller hp engines) and even on all cylinders.

2nd - With the spark plugs removed, rig up some type of spark tester whereas you can set a gap to be jumped. On magneto ignition systems.... and also the Battery Capacitance Ignition system OMC engines from 1968 to 1972, set the gap to 1/4". On the solid state OMC ignition systems from 1973 to the present, set the gap to 7/16". The spark should jump the gap with a strong blue lightning like flame..... a real strong blue snap!

If there was no spark, on engines from 1973 up, disconnect the RED main electrical plug at the engine. Remove the s/plugs. crank the engine via the starter solenoid (jumper bat term to small 3/8" term nut, not the ground nut) and observe spark. If spark is now okay as stated above, the usual cause is a shorted ignition switch.

If the above checks out as it should, and the engine dies out when throttle is applied or won't idle, it is usually due to one or both of two things. The carburetors are fouled, in which case the cure would be to remove, clean, and rebuild them..... or the timer base under the flywheel is sticking which would result in a retarded spark. If the engine will not fire/start at all even though you have the proper spark and compression, it's usually due to fouled carburetors.

To check the timer base for sticking (Engine Not Running), spin the prop to align the shifter dog with forward gear and while doing so, put the engine into forward gear. Now, while watching the timer base, slowly apply throttle clear up to full throttle. The timer base should move smoothly all the way up against the black rubber cap that is atached to the end of the full advance spark setting screw. If the timer base sticks, find out why and correct that problem.

Usually any sticking of the timer base is caused by one of the four retaining clamps being slightly too tight. Putting a very thin washer under the clamp cures that problem. Some boaters use a thin screwdriver to bend the clamp upwards slightly but I prefer the thin washer. The sticking can also be caused by having a faulty stator start to melt down, resulting in a sticky substance dripping down on the timer base nylon retaining ring.

Spark Tester - Home Made
(J. Reeves)

A spark tester can be made with a piece of 1x4 or 1x6, drive a couple nails through it, then bend the pointed ends at a right angle. You can then adjust the gap by simply twisting the nail(s). Solder a spark plug wire to one which you can connect to the spark plug boots, and a ground wire of some kind to the other to connect to the powerhead somewhere.

Using the above, one could easily build a spark tester whereas they could connect 2, 4, 6, or 8 cylinders all at one time. The ground nail being straight up, the others being bent, aimed at the ground nail. A typical 4 cylinder tester follows:


..........X1..........X2

.................X..(grd)

..........X3..........X4
 

jim_in_day

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Re: DHADLEY or Joe Reeves help!!!

Thanks for showing up Joe. I have absolutely wonderful spark, on a real spark testor it's jumping 3/4 in bright blue and snaps. The compression isn't what I like, 85 psi top, 95 middle and 100 bottom. I lost about 15psi on the top since last fall (and it's just been sitting because i couldn't keep it running). The carbs will suck you hand right to them, but i certainly can't overrule reed problems, but when I looked at them they all look ok
 

Walker

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Re: DHADLEY or Joe Reeves help!!!

What you describe sure sounds like a carb problem. When you put your hand over the top 2 carbs does your hand get wet with gas. It should. Upper carbs may not be getting enough fuel due to a weak fuel pump, float levels set wrong, or crud in the bowls and elswhere in the carbs.
 

jim_in_day

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Re: DHADLEY or Joe Reeves help!!!

Yes that is exactly what happens, they get very wet with gas. I checked the float level on all 3 carbs before installing (and cleaned them but not kitted because we only had 2 kits in stock) and the fuel pump has less that 10 hours on it. Please don't misunderstand me, I am not disputing the fact that that may be the problem, We were thinking that I have an upper or lower crank seal out. (the motor sat in the scrap pile for 5 or 6 years due to a lack of a lower unit) I also figure that honing and re ringing the pistons might not be a bad idea. not that i wouldn't like it to just be carbs as thats certainly cheaper. We swapped the carbs out because we were having a problem and wanted to see if that made a difference. It did, it just changed the problem. before what would happen is that after it warmed up, and you shut the engine off for 6 -10 min you have a real problem restarting it and when it does start it starts in a clowd of smoke like it was flooded.
 

jim_in_day

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Re: DHADLEY or Joe Reeves help!!!

Ok, How do I tell if i have a weak fuel pump? Its just a pulse type, do i attach a pressure guage and turn the motor over? I really am concerned about my sudden drop in compression in my top cyl, may pull head and look next week. I am considering honing the cyl's and reringing it and doing the top and bottom seals (it is 30 years old). Maybe put a set of boysen reeds in while i'm at it.
 

jim_in_day

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Re: DHADLEY or Joe Reeves help!!!

I took the head off Sun. Definately have a problem with the top cyl. being scored probably a broken ring, so I am in the middle of pulling the powerhead. Does anyone know how to tell if I can get by with just a hone job, or will I need to put an 020 oversize piston in that hole. Also, where can I get Boysen reeds? preferably wholesale. And if I hone the cyls will I need to break the edges on the ports?
 

jim_in_day

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Re: DHADLEY or Joe Reeves help!!!

Well, I wish that someone would answer, you guys are such a help, and I have more questions. I definately have to bore the cyls but I have a question about my crankshaft. The bearing surfaces are all still smooth to the touch, but they are discolored. Do I need to have the crank polished or turned? and then what do i do about the bearings?
I did find out that it was a chunk of rust most likely that caused the scoring on the top piston. The crank had a lot of rust on it (probably from sitting all those years in the junk pile out back)
 

Joe Reeves

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Re: DHADLEY or Joe Reeves help!!!

The standard bore on that engine is 3.000" (3 inches).

Strip the powrrhead down and have a reliable machine shop advise you as to whether it needs boring to .020 or whatever, at which point you will know what size piston to purchase.

And yes, it's a good idea to have them bevel the port edges somewhat.

Reeds? Use the stock reeds.
 

Dhadley

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Re: DHADLEY or Joe Reeves help!!!

Yep, I'd bet you're going to end up with oversize pistons like Joe says. If any piston needs replacing it doesn't make sense to NOT bore it.

As for the reeds, I'd install the Boyesens. Part #133. As long as it's apart anyway, no big deal.

As for the discoloration on the crank, stop using inferior oil and set it up so it's not lugging. Don't worry about "turnig the crank". There isn't such a thing -- there's no oversized bearings or cages. Polishing it is prefered but only if someone does it right. If it's actually rusted -- that's a different story.......
 

jim_in_day

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Re: DHADLEY or Joe Reeves help!!!

Thanks for the reply DHADLEY, i really appreciate it. The bearing races are not rusted, i did get rust on one of the crank throws and on one con rod, but none of the bearings. Who do you recommend to polish the crank, I'm still looking for a machine shop to do the work, it looks like I'll do all 3 holes. Both the bottom and top seals showed signs of leaking. I also use only Johnson/evinrude oil, but I have no history on what the previous owner used. I also finally got the setup right so I don't lug the motor (last good run was 6000 rpm) I am also replacing the bearing just because I'm in there.

edit..... Sorry Joe, i didn't see your post at first. I have already determined that I will need to bore it, and I'm going to do all 3. Like I asked DHADLEY, can you recommend a good machine shop I can contact for a quote?
 

Joe Reeves

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Re: DHADLEY or Joe Reeves help!!!

I have no idea where you're at but if you're in the central west Flordia area, I'd recommend Precision Sales & Service in Clearwater to do the machine work. They can also supply parts.

Just noticed, looks like you're in California. Oh well, just throw that powerhead in your lear jet and fly it over here.
 

jim_in_day

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Re: DHADLEY or Joe Reeves help!!!

8) LMAO. I have only located a place in alabama so far, so florida isn't that much more shipping, thanks for the recommendation. I am inquiring at other Northern Calif. dealers as to where they send there stuff out, and we also have a place in seattle wa. but i'm not sure about the quality of their work yet.
 

jim_in_day

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Re: DHADLEY or Joe Reeves help!!!

Ok guys, I am ready to start buying some of my parts (I'll wait on the pistons and rings until after the machine work), but I have a couple of questions. Are the Sierra gasket sets comparable with the OEM gasket sets? How about the bearing sets and pistons? I would like to save some money, but if the parts aren't as good, i will spend the extra to make sure i have a reliable engine when i get done.
 

jim_in_day

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Re: DHADLEY or Joe Reeves help!!!

Anybody with experience with the Sierra parts? I found a shop that has experience with boring marine engines and the proper tools. He wants the pistons before he does the actual bore job to make sure that he has the tolerances correct, so I would really like an answer about the Sierra pistons if anyone has experience with them
 

jim_in_day

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Re: DHADLEY or Joe Reeves help!!! Anyone ?

Re: DHADLEY or Joe Reeves help!!! Anyone ?

bump
 

Joe Reeves

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Re: DHADLEY or Joe Reeves help!!!

I've been waiting for someone else to answer that question. I've used other Sierra parts and found them to be a proper quality but I have no working knowledge of their pistons. I would suspect that they're okay but I'm in no position to recommend them.

Precision Sales & Manufacturing, on the other hand does handle high quality parts, pistons, etc, of which I have installed many of them without ever a problem. Check out their website at:

http://www.precisionmfgsales.com/
 

jim_in_day

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Re: DHADLEY or Joe Reeves help!!!

Thanks a lot. I will look into them right now. I just ordered all the standard parts today, and will wait until the machinist tells me how much i have to take off the clean up the cyls to order pistons. I really appreciate the answer, apparently not many people on this forum with Sierra replacement piston experience. I tried going thru the old posts using search and found nothing, so that makes it double nice to hear your response.


edit. Joe, that site doesn't come up.
 

wilde1j

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Re: DHADLEY or Joe Reeves help!!!

I would suggest Wiseco or BRP pistons. Let the machine shop tell you the size before ordering. I've only used BRP and Wiseco myself and can't comment on Sierra, which may be OK, but most will not have a direct opinion.
 
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