Dhadley, talk to me

sparkroost

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Mar 23, 2003
Messages
312
welp... I had to tear her down. 115hp crossflow 1973. I swapped carbs, didn't check the mixture, coked up and scored 1&3 pistons. I have a few questions for you if you would be willing to help. <br /><br />What is the ideal piston to wall clearance and ring end gap for weiscos, forged?<br /><br />There is a mod to do to the lower ring, removing <br />something and having a gap of near .120, does this sound right?<br /><br />I have ovaled all the intake ports and exhaust ports and also fitted the port covers so they fit like a glove. Should the ports be raised at all, or is there a specific dimension I am looking for from the top of the port to the top of the cylinder?<br /><br />I am also thinking of scalloping the pistons with a 1" radius and matching the bottom cylinder. Is this necessary, or better yet... what will it do for me in terms of performance?<br /><br />I heard of the mod to open the divider between the two carbs. You talked about a different gasket and a MOD to go with it.. what is the mod? Also.. does this mod affect idle? Does it EAT gas in doing this mod?<br /><br />Also as you know I have added the bubble exhaust without the tuner. Was there a different megaphone(if that's what it's called, the piece that goes from the adapter plate to the bottom of the leg) for this setup? Would drilling the lower unit with 1" holes help in the entire RPM range or just add to top end?<br /><br />I am in the process of getting a lighter boat that I can use in the bay. Once I get this motor setup I will continue my quest.
 

Dhadley

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Feb 4, 2001
Messages
16,978
Re: Dhadley, talk to me

We need to start with the basics. What top rpm were you getting? If I remember correctly, you lost some rpm with the motor stock and were trying to regain rpm with mods. If so we need to find the lost rpm and then do the mods.<br /><br />What carbs did you use?<br /><br />Was this the block that had the deck cut? Were the heads cut?<br /><br />Are you sure the piston damage was from coking or was it from scoring? What did the dome of the piston look like?<br /><br />We used to remove the ring end tips from the OMC rings, not the Wisecos. The finished bore size (measured at room temps) will be .0005 over a given size. IE - a .020 over bored cylinder will measure 3.5205 when using the new 31 series Wisecos. <br /><br />We have turned the stock Wiseco pistons and rings 7400+ in a crossflow with stock port timing. We have been over 9K with a modified crossflow motor without making any changes to the Wiseco pistons or rings.<br /><br />Keep us informed!
 

G DANE

Commander
Joined
Nov 24, 2001
Messages
2,476
Re: Dhadley, talk to me

Sorry to jump in, but i´m curious too. You earlier mentioned a carb mod to go with removing center divider to get higher rpm and more ponies -what carb mod ??
 

sparkroost

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Mar 23, 2003
Messages
312
Re: Dhadley, talk to me

I am not sure how this happened. Pistons were black on top. NO signs of detonation. Exhaust cavity was black. The piston scoring occured at apporox. 45deg from the top centerline. ie.. if you hold the piston with the exhaust side down, it occured at 2:00 and 8:00 O'clock. There is only light scoring on the intake side of both pistons. The majority is on the exhaust side of hte piston 8'O'clock. There is evidence of blow by. There was some very light skirt scratching on #2 and #4, but nothing to worry about(slight centerpoint scratching(very slight).<br /><br />One pecular thing I noticed about these(all of them) pistons on the intake side, on the land, are 5 marks, evenly spaced. These marks go all the way down to the aluminum. The aluminum is not scratched, but there is NO carbon in these spots. The width of these marks are .2085, the length is from the bottom radius of piston protrusion to the outside of the piston. The thickness of the carbon on the intake side is .0115 at the edges of these marks. It looks like something was hitting the pistons and moved the carbon outward. But I can assure you... nothing was hitting the pistons.<br /><br />Block was decked .005 and heads .005, but.. the heads were also relieved on the outside edge .0255 to accomadate any piston to head clearance issues.(this cut is next to the sealing edge of the head.)<br /><br />There is no ash on the pistons. All piston pins were dark in color, but came out with little force. All bearings were nicely coated with oil, including top bearing, lower and all bearings.<br /><br />Water PSI was 2 psi@ idle, 5-10 @ 1200-1500 and 20-22 psi @ 6100. 17psi @ 5000. <br /><br />Timing was set pr. your instructions, statically @ 26 deg(22 statically, conpensating 4 deg for computer advance).<br /><br />I will say this... I did not throughly clean the block like I should have after the bore. After reading here methods of cleaning, I have failed in that department. BUT, I could be over exaggerating due to the fact that #2 and #4 did not get this scoring.<br /><br />I used the 1 3/8th's carbs from the get go. The ones with only 2 jets. I later switched to the 1 3/8th's 78 carbs? Has idle air jets, intermediate and high jets. there is no choke plate and no orafices for a primer circuit. I had to make a primer circuit for these since I did not want to drill the port covers. when I changed carbs I lost about 300 rpm on top with this change.<br /><br />All along I was experiencing wet plugs from idle. On the high end the plugs were paper bag in color and dry(with the first carbs) second carbs I only ran twice, fishing. didn't check plugs with them.<br /><br />Motor was more noisy at 5800 to 6100 vs. 4000-5000. 4k was smooth as silk and 5k. But more than that it was noticably louder(could be prop imbalance, not sure). SO... what I did at that point was reduce the timing 2 full turns. Ran motor... noise was gone, but much less power(seat-o-pants meter)I see NO bearing damage whatsoever. There is NO evidence of detonation.<br /><br />Piston top is evenly coated with carbon and wet looking.<br /><br />Is the megaphone different for the higher HP motors?<br /><br />The powerband in this motor seemed to be in the 4k-5k range. I would like it to be 3000-6500.<br /><br />DH, is there more to the intake mod than just removing the divider and what will the characteristics be?<br /><br />I have pictures of everything, if you would like to look at them I can email them to you.
 

G DANE

Commander
Joined
Nov 24, 2001
Messages
2,476
Re: Dhadley, talk to me

Sparkroost<br /><br />I once rebuild a 2stroke motorbike, and unfortunately it was bored at machineshop with too little clearance. After the first run-in when I started to let it work, it showed symptoms of starting to size up. I immediately stopped and took it apart. It had developed 3/4" x 3/4" blank sport on skirts 1/3 from buttom of pistons on skirtsides. These pistons were turned with larger clearance at crown, due to larger expansion there. If thesame is the case with you, maybe the block was bored with too small tolerances. Just a thought.
 

sparkroost

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Mar 23, 2003
Messages
312
Re: Dhadley, talk to me

I agree.. scoring can come from piston to skirt clearance, excessive heat, too little heat. rich mix or lean mix. There are so many variables. I hope from this experience someone else can learn from my mistakes. I am taking the block in to work tonight to CMM the cyls and check bore size and taper, if any. I gotta find this problem.<br /><br />I will report back with bore size and see if I can still use the .020 pistons.
 

sparkroost

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Mar 23, 2003
Messages
312
Re: Dhadley, talk to me

ok... dimensions are in.. I honed these cyls. after taken apart with a FINE stone. I don't think it took much... or did I...measurements seem a little tight???<br /><br />These measurments were from a CMM<br />Cyl #1 3.521" with a .0014" cylindricity<br />Cyl #3 3.521" with a .0018" cylindricity<br />Cyl #2 3.522" with a .0020" cylindricity<br />Cyl #4 3.522" with a .0015" cylindricity<br /><br />These measurments were from a digital caliper using a bore indicator<br /><br />#1 3.5220<br />#3 3.5210<br />#2 3.5220<br />#4 3.5220<br /><br />All measurements were done just above the ports, 1/8" from top and the skirt area.<br /><br />what do you think?
 

sparkroost

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Mar 23, 2003
Messages
312
Re: Dhadley, talk to me

Does it look like a rich mix problem? Or dirty assembly issue?<br /><br />Another thing I noticed about the #1 cyl. There are score marks in the skirt area. I can feel them pretty easilly. The upper cyl. score marks cleaned up and are less than .001 deep... Would I need to bore this cylinder? Or will those score marks in the skirt area cause the same problem again?
 

Dhadley

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Feb 4, 2001
Messages
16,978
Re: Dhadley, talk to me

I didnt get any pics, if you sent them. The sizes are OK for the 3174's.
 

sparkroost

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Mar 23, 2003
Messages
312
Re: Dhadley, talk to me

I guess my mail at work was not working last night. I sent them from here this morning.
 
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