Engine will not shut down!!!

Incorrigible

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jan 5, 2009
Messages
111
Engine is a J225TXESS (1990 225hp)

The ignition key, when shut off, will not turn off the engine. NOTE: The performance of the engine DECREASES, it almost seems as though it's running on less cylinders. In an effort to shut down the engine, plug wires were pulled (while shutting off the fuel valve)

The decreased engine speed/performance is with the key switch OFF. Pulling the top plug wire on the starboard cylinder bank did NOTHING to performance. At the time that the second plug wire (middle cylinder, starboard bank) was pulled the engine shut off. CANNOT prove it was from pulling the plug wire, could have finally starved for fuel.

My question is whether or not the Quickstart system could be doing this, but I fail to understand how, when properly grounded, the engine will not shut down and continue to run.
 

Rscardina

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
May 3, 2010
Messages
513
Re: Engine will not shut down!!!

Engine is a J225TXESS (1990 225hp)

The ignition key, when shut off, will not turn off the engine. NOTE: The performance of the engine DECREASES, it almost seems as though it's running on less cylinders. In an effort to shut down the engine, plug wires were pulled (while shutting off the fuel valve)

The decreased engine speed/performance is with the key switch OFF. Pulling the top plug wire on the starboard cylinder bank did NOTHING to performance. At the time that the second plug wire (middle cylinder, starboard bank) was pulled the engine shut off. CANNOT prove it was from pulling the plug wire, could have finally starved for fuel.

My question is whether or not the Quickstart system could be doing this, but I fail to understand how, when properly grounded, the engine will not shut down and continue to run.

if the key is off and kill is shorted to ground then spark should not occur...however......you can have a run away engine due to hot spots in the motor that ignite the fuel... the plug removal may have been a coincidence but with you describing two cylinder operation (sounding like) you may have been runnuing on hot spots...

lean condition can create excess heat.. water pump working ok? passages clean?.. carbs ok?
 

Incorrigible

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Messages
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Re: Engine will not shut down!!!

This engine would NOT idle when in the water (shifting from gear to neutral would kill it)

I have thoroughly checked all fuel lines for air leaks (all lines are new, but still inspected them) and checked all hose clamps. The engine runs strong at WOT.

Working with my mechnic last night I was originally concerned about a possible water-in-the-cylinder issue which we diagnosed as NOT the case. Good compression.

The engine (when in the water) has some exhaust come out from under the cover, and was very smoky (possibly caused by a lean condition) His feel was that there is a possibility of an exhaust leak. there is evidence of exhaust water passing between the bottom of the midsection and the gear housing (black suit) furthering the belief of exhaust leak. He felt that an exhaust leak may contribute to a lean condition and thus a more smokey engine?

BTW: Water pump working fine (new) and flowing. Both overheat switches tested and functional. SLOW operation tested and confirmed operational.

Engine doesn't overheat when operated.

Carbs? Seem to work.....
 

Craig-

Petty Officer 1st Class
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Messages
316
Re: Engine will not shut down!!!

If exhaust was under the cover it would get sucked in instead of air through intake, would be rich not lean.

Check wiring at ignition switch, back feeding voltage through kill wire will damage power pack, above 4v will most likely kill it.
 

Incorrigible

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Messages
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Re: Engine will not shut down!!!

Wiring at the ignition switch was re-checked and found to be correct.

The only issue I have in wiring is that I need to have BOTH engines in the ON position. If one switch is turned off, the ground backfeeds through the single kill switch (need a diode in there) and grounds the second ignition switch.

I will run the ignition switch by-pass diagnostics tonight to double check and verify.
 

Craig-

Petty Officer 1st Class
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Messages
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Re: Engine will not shut down!!!

Wiring at the ignition switch was re-checked and found to be correct.

The only issue I have in wiring is that I need to have BOTH engines in the ON position. If one switch is turned off, the ground backfeeds through the single kill switch (need a diode in there) and grounds the second ignition switch.

I will run the ignition switch by-pass diagnostics tonight to double check and verify.

That's not wired right, you might be back feeding voltage.
 

Incorrigible

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Messages
111
Re: Engine will not shut down!!!

The only connection the kill switch makes is to the M contact on the ignition switches and two ground. The wiring path that it takes is no different than the path it takes if you pull the lanyard out on the emergency switch. OMC overcame the problem by installing a diode inline on one of the emergency kill switch leads for their kill switches with twin leads (for twin engines) which is what is missing.

To verify that this isn't the problem, however, I will remove the kill switch from the equation by disconnecting it from both ignition switches.

The kill switch shouldn't be able to provide feedback to the ignition, as it is only connected to ground and the ignition switch(es) ground.

To further test it, when trying to shut down the engine last night, both ignition switches were in the off position, and the kill switch lanyard was removed. Engine still ran (albeit slower)

Grounding ANY of these components (both ignition switches and the kill switch, one at a time or all together) have the same results: The engine runs "slower" but does not shut down.
 

Craig-

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Re: Engine will not shut down!!!

...
To further test it, when trying to shut down the engine last night, both ignition switches were in the off position, and the kill switch lanyard was removed. Engine still ran (albeit slower)

Grounding ANY of these components (both ignition switches and the kill switch, one at a time or all together) have the same results: The engine runs "slower" but does not shut down.

Does it shut down after a cold start before warming up? But not when warm?

Does grounding the kill wire (I think blk/yel) at powerhead shut it down when still cold? When warm?
 

Craig-

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Messages
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Re: Engine will not shut down!!!

About the voltage, I was saying at some point if the the kill wire for the malfunctioning motor got some back-feed, it's pack may have been damaged and could be causing the problem. A loose harness connection might get water in it and cause this to happen or short across keyed ignition switch. A pack may still function but also act wacky when it heats up. Your switch wiring won't cause the problem, each one is working like a deadman is all.
 

Incorrigible

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Re: Engine will not shut down!!!

UPDATE:

Okay, kill switch is REMOVED from the system. It actually does cause an issue when trying the Key Switch Isolation Test.

I'm hopeful that you're way wrong (nothing personal) as I would hate to have to replace the power pack right now, but it will be what it is.

Either way: Removed the kill switch.

Started engine. Runs great again (why can't they just stay that way?)

Do NOT need to have both keys in the ON position to start the engine.

When I turned the ignition to "OFF" the engine slowed, but continued to run.

I verified spark in the STARBOARD bank on all three cylinders, and NO spark on all the PORT bank (all three cylinders)

I have NOT at this time tested for continuity from the key switch to the power pack which will be my next step. If there is continuity at that point I will ground each lead from the power pack.

My question now is this: Could the shift interrupter switch be causing this problem? The shift interrupter only kills half the cylinders? (of course, I don't know where that is....)

More to come....
 

Craig-

Petty Officer 1st Class
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Messages
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Re: Engine will not shut down!!!

The black/yellow wire from the power pack will kill all ignition when grounded. Don't ground every wire from the pack. If that doesn't stop it from running, the pack is the problem, sorry to say.
Ground it at the pack, to make sure the problem is not downstream. If it does shut it down, follow it down for continuity.

I have not worked on one of those in years and the pack is hard to find. CDI makes one #113-4037, list price was around $240. I think Sierra makes one also.
 

daselbee

Commander
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Jan 20, 2009
Messages
2,765
Re: Engine will not shut down!!!

There are two plugs under the pack for the kill circuits. I define one kill circuit as the "whole engine kill", which is black/yellow trace wire. That runs thru the harness up to the ignition switch "M" terminal.

The other kill circuit is the shift interrupt switch. There is another single pin plug under the pack that has a black/orange trace wire. That one is for the shift interrupter switch.

If you have the "whole engine kill" and the shift interrupter switch plugs SWAPPED, when you turn the key off, you will only kill the starboard bank.
Both are single pin rubber plugs up under the pack.

There is also a blocking diode in the harness in this circuit which may be bad.

It may run on three port cyls....I don't know for sure.

You might want to double check that.

You don't say if this is a new problem, or if you just got the engine and this is one of the problems.
At any rate, while debugging this, I would definitely disconnect the shift interrupt switch just to "get it out of the way" while you debug the problem.
 

Sixmark

Master Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 11, 2010
Messages
890
Re: Engine will not shut down!!!

The Sierra number for the pack is 18-5893 , you can get them from a place here in Minneapolis for $181.00 w/free shipping. Just throwing it out there in case you need either the part number or a better price. These guys got me my coils for $20.00/each and my power pack for $84.00 on my 1984 75hp Evinrude. Basically saved me $100.00

Just let me know if you need their contact info, I don't want to upset the powers that be here on Iboats
 

Incorrigible

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Messages
111
Re: Engine will not shut down!!!

Engine: J225TXESS (1990 225hp)

NOTE: This is a NEW engine to me. Upon purchase this problem existed, but the engine was not worked on for a year and a half and I am not finished restoring the boat and trying to set up the engines.

The black/yellow wire from the M on the ignition switch is properly grounded.

This wire splits to two wires by the time it exits from under the flywheel into two single wire connectors. Testing at this point shows both connetors have a good ground, and they are open when the key switch is turned to the "ON" position. Key switch is good (also tested all connection combinations for continuity to be safe - all check out correct)

I removed the emergency kill switch from the circuit to eliminate any possible problems there.

The port connector goes directly into the power pack.

The starboard connector goes into the power pack through the shift interrupter switch.

Once connected, the single wire connector that comes from the shift interrupter switch and goes into the power pack? NO GROUND. OPEN WIRE.

Thus, you are correct: THIS is why the starboard bank of cylinders does not shut down on the key switch, and is the reason that the engine goes no shut down. This is progress. This shows that the problem I am having has been isolated to the shift interrupter switch (assuming the power pack works, but again, will get to that once this is resolved)

I pulled the shift interrupter switch out of the engine and began diagnosing it.

I pulled back the wiring to expose the diode and gain acces to all the connection points.

Testing the shift interrupter switch shows that it works correctly.

Testing the diode shows that the diode functions correctly as a DIODE.

FIRST QUESTION: What is the purpose of the diode in the shift interrupt circuit? From what I can figure, it allows the shift interrupt switch to ground (and thus kill) the starboard bank of cylinders ONLY and keeps the ground created when the shift interrupt switch is activated from backfeeding through the black/yellow wire into the port side? That makes sense.

If that's the case, it would appear that the diode in my FACTORY WIRING is backwards, and that it's in the wrong position. What would make sense to me (assuming diodes purpose is as listed above) is that the ground from the single wire connector leading to the ignition switch should pass through the shift interrupter circuit to allow shutting down the engine. When the shift intterupter circuit is activated, it should allow ground to the power pack but not FLOW BACKWARDS to the port bank.

As well, it appears that diode is located in the wrong direction. (this is hard to do without a diagram)

This is how I THINK it should go:

From the single connector coming form the key switch, ground should be direct to the power pack. The switch interrupt switch should connect into that line, and run through a black/yellow wire to the shift intterupt switch (the other lead from the switch to ground) The diode should be between the junction of the switch interrupt switch and the key switch ground black/yellow wire. This would allow:

Grounding from the key switch to both cylinder banks.
Grounding form the shift interrupter switch to ONLY the starboard bank.

SECOND QUESTION: What looks like factory wiring harnass would be a backwards diode and have the junction of these two wires in the incorrect location: Could this be a part installed from a different engine, or could this be from a counter rotating engine? I'm curios if this is unheard of or something that, from time to time, just happens. In short? WHy?

THANKS FOR ALL THE INPUT. It's helped me trace my problem and isolate the location.
 

Craig-

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
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Messages
316
Re: Engine will not shut down!!!

What is the color of wire with diode?
Ground wire at harness diode, before then after diode, that should answer your question.

Thought this wire color chart might be useful.
OMC Under-cowling Wiring
------------------------

(Based on V6 c.1992)

RED = Battery positive
RED with VIOLET stripe = Fused battery supply to ignition switch

BLACK = Battery negative
BLACK with YELLOW stripe = KILL Switch (grounded to stop engine)

YELLOW with RED stripe = START (Ignition switch to starter solenoid via safety switch)

VIOLET = Battery voltage in RUN or START from ignition switch
VIOLET with WHITE stripe = PRIMER solenoid

LT BROWN = ALARM (grounded on alarm)

GRAY = TACHOMETER pulses to gauge from Rectifier/Regulator


OMC Stator Coil / Timer Base Wiring
----------------------

YELLOW / YELLOW with GRAY stripe = Battery Charging Coil AC voltage
to Rectifier/Regulator Assembly
on Engine Block

BROWN / BROWN with YELLOW stripe = Charge Coil to Ignition Power Pack
BROWN / BROWN with BLACK stripe = Second Charge Coil to Ignition Power Pack

ORANGE / ORANGE with BLACK stripe = Power Coil to Ignition Power Pack
or OIS Module

Green / Violet / White = Timer Base to Ignition Power Pack
/ Black with White


OMC Power Trim and Tilt
-----------------------

RED = Battery positive
RED with VIOLET stripe = Fused battery supply to remote controls

BLUE = UP supply to MOTOR
BLUE with WHITE stripe = UP RELAY
GREEEN = DOWN supply to MOTOR
GREEN with WHITE stripe = DOWN RELAY
RED with WHITE stripe = Fused battery to remote switches

BLACK with TAN = Trim SENDER isolated ground
WHITE with TAN = Trim SENDER isolated fused battery positive
 

daselbee

Commander
Joined
Jan 20, 2009
Messages
2,765
Re: Engine will not shut down!!!

Engine: J225TXESS (1990 225hp)


I pulled the shift interrupter switch out of the engine and began diagnosing it.

What was the result? If the problem was in the shift switch, the engine should have started shutting down properly. Did it?

As well, it appears that diode is located in the wrong direction. (this is hard to do without a diagram)

I know what you mean (without the diagram), but I would find it very strange that the diode was installed in a factory harness backwards. They test those things, you know.
Where did you locate the diode? I would think it is in the shift interruper switch harness, NOT the main engine harness. I don't know where it is for sure. The wiring diagram I have shows a probable location in the shift interrupt switch harness, or maybe inside the pack itself....
If you are looking at a diode with tan wires connected to it, you are on the wrong diode.

SECOND QUESTION: What looks like factory wiring harnass would be a backwards diode and have the junction of these two wires in the incorrect location: Could this be a part installed from a different engine, or could this be from a counter rotating engine? I'm curios if this is unheard of or something that, from time to time, just happens. In short? WHy?

NOT a counterrotator. The counter rotating is accomplished in the lower unit. The powerhead always rotates clockwise (well, on these 90* V6 looper motors anyway). Basically the same part for all applications. Not possible to be from a different engine.
 

Incorrigible

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
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Messages
111
Re: Engine will not shut down!!!

Thank you for the wiring color chart. MOST helpful in moving forward.

I have NOT gotten the chance to test the engine with the shift interrupter switch removed. Tomorrow evening.

The results of testing the shift interrupter switch circuit (black/yellow wire) shows the diode works properly (tested with digital multi-meter with diode testing capabilities) and the switch itself was tested both on Ohms scale and with continuity tester. Works out well.


It almost seems like it's in backwards, but the connectors being male/female only allow it to be installed one way. If it were reveresed it would be correct (or so it seems) Will post results after testing engine without shift interrupter switch and what next steps were taken.

My big concern is that the only thing the diode is in the wiring harnass for is to limit which cylinders are shut out by the shift interrupter switch...
 

Incorrigible

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Messages
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Re: Engine will not shut down!!! - RESOLVED

Re: Engine will not shut down!!! - RESOLVED

Problem resolved.

First, I know NOTHING about diodes nor the way current flows through a circuit. The diode is CORRECT. Current flows TO ground, no the fact that I didn't have a good ground after the shift interrupter switch is because of the diode. The diode allows the current to flow FROM the power pack TO the ground (DUH!!!)

Determined this by testing the shift interrupt circuit on the starboard engine, with same results. THIS engine shuts down, thus not the shift interrupt circuit.

STEPS: removed the shift interrupt switch from the key switch circuit and connected directly to the power pack. Started engine, again it would not shut down the starboard bank. My thoughts are that the power pack is bad. Having a twin engine, I decided I would swap power packs, and verify before spending the money. I GOT LUCKY.

As I was removing the single wire plugs, I noticed a bit of old electrical tape below the power pack side plug (where the shift interrupt switch connects to the power pack) Pulling the tape off showed me exposed wire. I tested for continuity between the plug and the exposed wire.

NOTHING.

I wiggled the wire back into the plug and retested. CONTINUITY.

Reconnected. Stared engine. Turned of key.

Engine shuts down.

LESSON LEARNED: The advice given on this forum TIME AND AGAIN (and I THOUGHT I TOOK IT) where people say "CHECK YOUR CONNECTIONS" was exactly my problem in this case and would have saved me hours and hours of research and testing.

Thanks again for all the input, suggestions, and ideas. I now know more about the ignition system of my J225TXESS than I ever thought possible. Will help in keeping them both running for many years to come.
 

Craig-

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Jul 25, 2010
Messages
316
Re: Engine will not shut down!!! - RESOLVED

Re: Engine will not shut down!!! - RESOLVED

Problem resolved.

First, I know NOTHING about diodes nor the way current flows through a circuit. The diode is CORRECT. Current flows TO ground, no the fact that I didn't have a good ground after the shift interrupter switch is because of the diode. The diode allows the current to flow FROM the power pack TO the ground (DUH!!!)

Determined this by testing the shift interrupt circuit on the starboard engine, with same results. THIS engine shuts down, thus not the shift interrupt circuit.

STEPS: removed the shift interrupt switch from the key switch circuit and connected directly to the power pack. Started engine, again it would not shut down the starboard bank. My thoughts are that the power pack is bad. Having a twin engine, I decided I would swap power packs, and verify before spending the money. I GOT LUCKY.

As I was removing the single wire plugs, I noticed a bit of old electrical tape below the power pack side plug (where the shift interrupt switch connects to the power pack) Pulling the tape off showed me exposed wire. I tested for continuity between the plug and the exposed wire.

NOTHING.

I wiggled the wire back into the plug and retested. CONTINUITY.

Reconnected. Stared engine. Turned of key.

Engine shuts down.

LESSON LEARNED: The advice given on this forum TIME AND AGAIN (and I THOUGHT I TOOK IT) where people say "CHECK YOUR CONNECTIONS" was exactly my problem in this case and would have saved me hours and hours of research and testing.

Thanks again for all the input, suggestions, and ideas. I now know more about the ignition system of my J225TXESS than I ever thought possible. Will help in keeping them both running for many years to come.

A diode is like a check valve for current flow.
You should solder and shrink wrap any bad connections. Just about all plastic pin connectors can be undone by inserting a paperclip in the front side along the pin to un-spring it, the pin will then come out on wire side. There should never be a need to cut a harness wire. Pierce probing wires can result in premature failure, especially in a salt water environment.

Good to hear you figured it out and didn't have to buy any parts.
 
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