Engineers Modify Hybrid Cars To Get Up To 250 mpg

lundboat

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CORTE MADERA, CALIF. - Politicians and automakers say a car that can both reduce greenhouse gases and free America from its reliance on foreign oil is years or even decades away. <br /><br />Ron Gremban says such a car is parked in his garage. <br /><br />It looks like a typical Toyota Prius hybrid, but in the trunk sits an 80-miles-per-gallon secret - a stack of 18 brick-sized batteries that boosts the car's high mileage with an extra electrical charge so it can burn even less fuel. <br /><br />Gremban, an electrical engineer and committed environmentalist, spent several months and $3,000 tinkering with his car. <br /><br />Like all hybrids, his Prius increases fuel efficiency by harnessing small amounts of electricity generated during braking and coasting. The extra batteries let him store extra power by plugging the car into a wall outlet at his home in this San Francisco suburb - all for about a quarter. <br /><br />He's part of a small but growing movement. "Plug-in" hybrids aren't yet cost-efficient, but some of the dozen known experimental models have gotten up to 250 mpg. <br /><br />They have support not only from environmentalists but also from conservative foreign policy hawks who insist Americans fuel terrorism through their gas guzzling. <br /><br />And while the technology has existed for three decades, automakers are beginning to take notice, too. <br /><br />So far, DaimlerChrysler AG is the only company that has committed to building its own plug-in hybrids, quietly pledging to make up to 40 vans for U.S. companies. But Toyota Motor Corp. officials who initially frowned on people altering their cars now say they may be able to learn from them. <br /><br />"They're like the hot rodders of yesterday who did everything to soup up their cars. It was all about horsepower and bling-bling, lots of chrome and accessories," said Cindy Knight, a Toyota spokeswoman. "Maybe the hot rodders of tomorrow are the people who want to get in there and see what they can do about increasing fuel economy." <br /><br />The extra batteries let Gremban drive for 20 miles with a 50-50 mix of gas and electricity. Even after the car runs out of power from the batteries and switches to the standard hybrid mode, it gets the typical Prius fuel efficiency of around 45 mpg. As long as Gremban doesn't drive too far in a day, he says, he gets 80 mpg. <br /><br />"The value of plug-in hybrids is they can dramatically reduce gasoline usage for the first few miles every day," Gremban said. "The average for people's usage of a car is somewhere around 30 to 40 miles per day. During that kind of driving, the plug-in hybrid can make a dramatic difference." <br /><br />Backers of plug-in hybrids acknowledge that the electricity to boost their cars generally comes from fossil fuels that create greenhouse gases, but they say that process still produces far less pollution than oil. They also note that electricity could be generated cleanly from solar power. <br /><br />Gremban rigged his car to promote the nonprofit CalCars Initiative, a San Francisco Bay area-based volunteer effort that argues automakers could mass produce plug-in hybrids at a reasonable price. <br /><br />But Toyota and other car companies say they are worried about the cost, convenience and safety of plug-in hybrids - and note that consumers haven't embraced all-electric cars because of the inconvenience of recharging them like giant cell phones. <br /><br />Automakers have spent millions of dollars telling motorists that hybrids don't need to be plugged in, and don't want to confuse the message. <br /><br />Nonetheless, plug-in hybrids are starting to get the backing of prominent hawks like former CIA director James Woolsey and Frank Gaffney, President Reagan's undersecretary of defense. They have joined Set America Free, a group that wants the government to spend $12 billion over four years on plug-in hybrids, alternative fuels and other measures to reduce foreign oil dependence. <br /><br />Gaffney, who heads the Washington, D.C.-based Center for Security Policy, said Americans would embrace plug-ins if they understood arguments from him and others who say gasoline contributes to oil-rich Middle Eastern governments that support terrorism. <br /><br />"The more we are consuming oil that either comes from places that are bent on our destruction or helping those who are ... the more we are enabling those who are trying to kill us," Gaffney said. <br /><br />DaimlerChrysler spokesman Nick Cappa said plug-in hybrids are ideal for companies with fleets of vehicles that can be recharged at a central location at night. He declined to name the companies buying the vehicles and said he did not know the vehicles' mileage or cost, or when they would be available. <br /><br />Others are modifying hybrids, too. <br /><br />Monrovia-based Energy CS has converted two Priuses to get up to 230 mpg by using powerful lithium ion batteries. It is forming a new company, EDrive Systems, that will convert hybrids to plug-ins for about $12,000 starting next year, company vice president Greg Hanssen said. <br /><br />University of California, Davis engineering professor Andy Frank built a plug-in hybrid from the ground up in 1972 and has since built seven others, one of which gets up to 250 mpg. They were converted from non-hybrids, including a Ford Taurus and Chevrolet Suburban. <br /><br />Frank has spent $150,000 to $250,000 in research costs on each car, but believes automakers could mass-produce them by adding just $6,000 to each vehicle's price tag. <br /><br />Instead, Frank said, automakers promise hydrogen-powered vehicles hailed by President Bush and Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger, even though hydrogen's backers acknowledge the cars won't be widely available for years and would require a vast infrastructure of new fueling stations. <br /><br />"They'd rather work on something that won't be in their lifetime, and that's this hydrogen economy stuff," Frank said. "They pick this kind of target to get the public off their back, essentially." <br /><br />For More Information: <br /><br /> http://calcars.org
 
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DJ

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Re: Engineers Modify Hybrid Cars To Get Up To 250 mpg

OMG-we're saved!!!!! :rolleyes: <br /><br />The only part of this argument that is "unplugged", is that they have to be "plugged in".<br /><br />Where the he!! does one think that the "plugged in" energy comes from???? It comes from: coal, natural gas, and a diminishing nuclear base.<br /><br />THINK PEOPLE-THINK!!!! :rolleyes:
 

ufm82

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Re: Engineers Modify Hybrid Cars To Get Up To 250 mpg

OK, so when everyone drives a plug-in hybrid, where does the electricity come from that they are all plugging in to? Does it magically appear or do we have to burn a fuel somewhere to produce it? Hydroelectric is cheap but good luck getting a dam built anymore. Nuclear? Doubt it. That leaves us with coal, oil or natural gas for our power production. <br /><br /> UFM82
 

ufm82

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Re: Engineers Modify Hybrid Cars To Get Up To 250 mpg

DOH! We were typing at the same time. LOL Dang I hate that. <br /><br /> In order to reduce our needs, we have to think up something NEW, not just swap one source for another. <br /><br />UFM82<br /><br />Hydrogen is the next suspect in my mind
 
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DJ

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Re: Engineers Modify Hybrid Cars To Get Up To 250 mpg

UFM,<br /><br />I think we're wasting ENERGY here. <br /><br />OMG. :eek: ;)
 

lundboat

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Re: Engineers Modify Hybrid Cars To Get Up To 250 mpg

I just thought the article was interesting so I thought I'd share it. However, the article does address your concern DJ and UFM82.<br /><br />Backers of plug-in hybrids acknowledge that the electricity to boost their cars generally comes from fossil fuels that create greenhouse gases, but they say that process still produces far less pollution than oil. They also note that electricity could be generated cleanly from solar power. <br /><br />** I mean the solar comment is awfully idealistic, but I think the key here is that we'd be producing our own energy vs having it shipped over from the likes of Saudi Arabia and Iran.
 
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DJ

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Re: Engineers Modify Hybrid Cars To Get Up To 250 mpg

lundboat,<br /><br />I saw your insight. However, there are too many idiots in this country that think that this is the UTOPIA. It is NOT.<br /><br />A very calculated and careful ploy by Honda and Toyota to boost sales. It is a fact that they do not have enough of those vehicles to go around. They know that, you know that. The general public, does not. Most of those vehicles go into government service. Another ploy.<br /><br />There are US companies offering the same. However US companies are taboo, in the media.<br /><br />We all run, like Lemmings, to the "promised".<br /><br />What fools we are.
 

SS MAYFLOAT

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Re: Engineers Modify Hybrid Cars To Get Up To 250 mpg

Who would you rather pay your money to, the electric company or to the middle east oil kings?<br /><br />As long as we complain about the enviroment, we will always be behind other nations that are advancing faster than us.<br /><br />Auto manufactures has spoiled us with all the gadgets that they have. No wonder it will be hard to provide an economical way of transportation. <br /><br />I hope something happens quick. 3 weeks ago I bought gas for 2.18, today it has hit 2.70 and the cheapest diesel is 2.74. This AM it was 2.56 befor the jump to 2.70.<br /><br />Anything that can stop the flow of cash to the middle east I am in favor of. So yes, I would be glad to plug it in. I wouldn't think a charger would pull anymore power than a refrigerator.
 
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DJ

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Re: Engineers Modify Hybrid Cars To Get Up To 250 mpg

SS wrote: <br /><br />
Auto manufactures has spoiled us with all the gadgets that they have. No wonder it will be hard to provide an economical way of transportation. <br /><br />
Yep, DITTO. Why did they do that?? Why? Because WE demanded it, as consumers.<br /><br />The TV people have done the same. HDTV, Cable, Sat. etc. Yadda, yadda, yadda.<br /><br />Pick a poison.<br /><br />It's "unthinking" to zero in on one industry.
 

lundboat

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Re: Engineers Modify Hybrid Cars To Get Up To 250 mpg

24tesla, that scooter rocks!<br /><br />DJ, this may not be the perfect Utopia that some desperate people go running to, but it beats the hell out of our current situation of giving our hard earned dollars to the middle east.<br /><br />I'd just love to see a "Manhattan Project" type of effort thown at this issue. The solution can't be that bloody difficult to reach, because you know damn well that if we got a call from the middle east and they said the wells were dry, that we'd jump and find an alternative.
 
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DJ

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Re: Engineers Modify Hybrid Cars To Get Up To 250 mpg

lundboat,<br /><br />We have PLENTY of oil here. It just seems that we can't touch it.<br /><br />Why. Two words: <br /><br />Political Correctness (PC).<br /><br />All words, no substance. In another word: CRAP.<br /><br />We seem to thrive on it.
 

lundboat

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Re: Engineers Modify Hybrid Cars To Get Up To 250 mpg

DJ, <br /><br />We don't have plenty of oil here. Why would you think that we do? If we only used the oil we could pump domestically our wells would be dry within a decade. That includes ANWR.<br /><br />Then you have the reality that East Asia is JUST starting to consume oil, and their consumption is expected to increase exponentially for quite some time.
 

JB

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Re: Engineers Modify Hybrid Cars To Get Up To 250 mpg

Hmmmm. That homemade electric/gas-electric hybrid sounds attractive, but, as usual, exaggerates its claims.<br /><br />Why add batteries to run in electric-only mode? Why not use the very expensive batteries that are already there?<br /><br />Claims of 250mpg are bogus if they include any electric-only running.<br /><br />"Clean" ONLY if the charging power comes from nuclear, hydroelectric, solar or wind sources. If the power comes from fossil fuel plants it only pollutes somewhere else, and still uses up fossil fuels. Whether nuclear is "clean" in the long run is still an open argument.<br /><br />DaimlerChrysler is running Smart Diesel Hybrids in Europe now that get 80mpg. Why not here? First, emissions limits on Diesels (go away next year), and second, they don't believe Americans would buy them.<br /><br />Now, one of those running on 100% vegetable oils sounds like an attractive alternate vehicle.
 

SS MAYFLOAT

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Re: Engineers Modify Hybrid Cars To Get Up To 250 mpg

lundboat, I know you addressed DJ, but here is my scoop on what I know from history on our oil vs mid eastern oil. Rockefeller went to the mid east because it was cheaper to extract the oil there than here. Just like our jobs going south. It is cheaper to produce and put things together out of the country than here. Why????? GREED!<br /><br />Greed is the main driver for us not to extract oil here. It is wait until all other resources are used up in other countries. Then the well owners here will be even richer than middle east empires. I maybe wrong, but common sense tells me that is what is up.
 

JB

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Re: Engineers Modify Hybrid Cars To Get Up To 250 mpg

This is really a Non-boating Tech topic. Let's go there.
 

skeeterboy

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Re: Engineers Modify Hybrid Cars To Get Up To 250 mpg

yea that wont pull my boat and camper. ah well must go spend money at the pump again.
 

KRS

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Re: Engineers Modify Hybrid Cars To Get Up To 250 mpg

And remember, the manufacture of batteries and solar panels and wires and cables doesn't produce ANY toxins or harmful byproducts, nor does it use any in it's manufacturing processes, and furthermore, when we are done with them we just clap our hands twice and they *POOF* disappear into thin air and there is no waste !!!
 

kenimpzoom

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Re: Engineers Modify Hybrid Cars To Get Up To 250 mpg

SS amyfloat is correct, it is MUCH cheaper to get the oil out of the ground in the mid east than it is in the USA. The amount of oil produced per well in the mid east far exceeds the amount of oil produced per well in the USA.<br /><br />While electricity is still "dirty" it is much more effcient than each car having an internal combustion engine. Plus the mid east has the oil BUT... the USA and Canada has the coal.<br /><br />Nuclear is the best option and I hope the new energy bill spurs some new nuclear power plants.<br /><br />In reality is the goverment should give some type of incentives for the SUV drivers to drive highly effcient cars again. A tax program that lets SUV owners buy fuel efficient cars and get a hughe tax rebate if the mileage on the SUV is low, and the mileage on the car is high.<br /><br />Ken
 

tomatolord

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Re: Engineers Modify Hybrid Cars To Get Up To 250 mpg

The numbers dont make sense which is why the car companies dont go for it.<br /><br />1st it is an extra 3,000 (his estimate based on bulk purchase)<br /><br />You only get the boost if you go less than 50 miles per day (basically running the battery for the little trips and then if you go over no problem you get the hybrid efficiency.<br /><br />If you use these costs 50miles per day 5 days a week 52 weeks a year with gas at 1.50 a gallon<br /><br />250 mpg = $78 per year in gas<br />50 mpg = $312 <br />20 = $897<br /><br />Which means you need 10 years to pay back the extra 3k if you could get 50 mpg<br />and<br />3.3 years if you car only got 20mpg<br /><br />Plus we all know the batteries will never last even 3 years<br />and<br /><br />the thing about the hybrids is that those mileages are tested WITHOUT anything on - no radio, no AC, no lights, no wipers nothing<br /><br />tomatolord
 
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