Epoxy or Polyester for deck

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clarkw

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I am planning on using BC Exterior Plywood for the decking in my boat. This will be coated with Eposy or Polyester. A gallon of Epoxy Resin is $94.99 and the hardener is another 37.99. I can get a gallon of Polyester Resin for $39.99 with the hardener included.

Is the Epoxy necessary to protect the wood deck or is the Polyester good enough. I plan to put on at least 2 coats, and ultimately cover the deck with carpet.

I got 1 gallon of Epoxy and used it to laminate my transom so far, and plan to put on 1 thin coat, and 2 finish coats of the epoxy on the transom.

Thanks for your suggestions.

ClarkW
 

oops!

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Re: Epoxy or Polyester for deck

I am planning on using BC Exterior Plywood for the decking in my boat. This will be coated with Eposy or Polyester. A gallon of Epoxy Resin is $94.99 and the hardener is another 37.99. I can get a gallon of Polyester Resin for $39.99 with the hardener included.

Is the Epoxy necessary to protect the wood deck or is the Polyester good enough. I plan to put on at least 2 coats, and ultimately cover the deck with carpet.

I got 1 gallon of Epoxy and used it to laminate my transom so far, and plan to put on 1 thin coat, and 2 finish coats of the epoxy on the transom.

Thanks for your suggestions.

ClarkW

your choice bud.....one thing....once you start with epoxy....you cannot go back to poly.....the reason is epoxy will stick to poly but poly wont stick to epoxy.....so if you use epoxy to do your deck....anything added in years to come MUST be with epoxy.

the epoxy is far stronger than poly....and the waterproofing capeabilities are superior......4 coats of epoxy over a laminate is extreeeeeemly water impervious......(however water ALLWAYS finds a way)

the poly will be sufficent....its still fantastic stuff......remember you want about 8 oz of glass on the deck what ever you choose poly or epoxy

a good deck done with poly will last 20 years....epoxy..?????

cheers
oops
 

oops!

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Re: Epoxy or Polyester for deck

THIS C&P IS FROM ONDARVR ON A DIFFERENT THREAD

i thought it was pertanent to your question.....

It's commonly thought that epoxy will stop the wood from rotting, it won't, if it gets wet it will rot. What prevents rot is keeping the wood dry and that's all about encapsulation, not penetration. If you do a good job with either product the boat will last far longer than you need it to. What needs to be done is pay a great deal of attention to any seams, edges, screw holes, trim and anything that will penetrate the laminate There's nothing wrong with using epoxy and it will do some things better than polyester, just don't think that because you used epoxy you have nothing to worry about.

When using epoxy there's no need for mat, so any of the knitted or woven fabrics can be used
 

clarkw

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Re: Epoxy or Polyester for deck

I have been reading the threads here and was under the impression that plywood decking coated with epoxy (or poly) was good to go. Carpet could then be installed and "Bob's your uncle".

As I understand you, I need to glass the plywood. This is going into an aluminum boat.

Thanks for the replys.

ClarkW
 

TK

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Re: Epoxy or Polyester for deck

Do some online checking of supply house's and I am sure you can find epoxy for under $60/gal.
 

rngale

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Re: Epoxy or Polyester for deck

ok, here is the scoop on epoxy for saturation purposes. When applied properly for penetration purposes ( which differs from laminating) it petrifies the wood so to speak. Polyester does not. West system was one of the first to create a manual as to how to saturate wood with their epoxy resin, since there are many other manufacturers of epxoy resins. Depending on what you want to do will depend on which hardner you choose to catalize your resin with. Epoxy can be more than just a glue.
 

ondarvr

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Re: Epoxy or Polyester for deck

Like I've said before, epoxy is a very good product, but the problem is it's virtues become greatly exaggerated. Epoxy is a very good glue and bonds to wood very well, but even penetrating epoxies don't penetrate very far and they tend to be weaker and less water resistant than unthinned epoxies. Studies have shown that wood sealed with thinned epoxy absorbs more water than the same wood coated with unthinned epoxy. If you're building a wooden boat epoxy is the only way to go, I would never recommend polyester for this purpose, but I also rarely see a case where polyester resin isn't up the job of repairing a polyester boat and that includes being used on stringers and transoms.

People read on the net that epoxy is better (stronger, more water resistant) than polyester, but they have no idea of what the relative strength is, or just how much strength is needed for the job, or repair they're doing. Plus some epoxy retailers make some very wild claims at times that will stretch the facts some. There's less money to be made in selling a gallon of polyester than a gallon of epoxy and the retail market for polyester is very small compared to the commercial market, so very little hype is put into polyester, but they upsell epoxy pretty hard.

I like epoxy for many jobs, but I rarely use it on a F/G boat repair.
 

rngale

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Re: Epoxy or Polyester for deck

If epoxies virtues are "greatly exaggerated" Then maybe you could explain why cold molded boats are made with epoxy and expoxy alone and do not rot after being saturated and glued with epoxy resin then finished with a uv barrier?
 

ondarvr

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Re: Epoxy or Polyester for deck

When water get's to the wood they rot.

Mass produced boats made from polyester rarely get the attention to detail that wooden boats get, this results in design and workmanship issues that would create problems no matter which product was used. These issues get blamed on the resin, not the real cause, which is poorly trained workers that may or may not care and are using a poorly thought out design.

Plus I also noted in my reply that when making or working on wooden boats epoxy is the way to go.

Epoxy has become a buzz word that implies anything made with it will last longer, be better, faster, sexier and stronger to name just a few things and there is some truth to it. The problem is, once the strength of the item being made has surpassed the level needed, you're paying for more than what's needed, which can raise the cost and difficulty of production a great deal with little or no benefit to the end user.

There is always a "better" product out there that could be used for any application, cars, trucks, TVs, video equipment, computers, you name it, you just need to decide what will work for each application or situation and try not to over spend on none important features. What I've found with epoxy and polyester, is that in 95% of the uses polyester will work very well and the results will be the same as if epoxy was used, meaning that the user won't see any difference in durability or performance over the life of the product. There is that 5% where epoxy is the only, or best answer though.
 

rngale

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Re: Epoxy or Polyester for deck

My point is that if it saturating wood with epoxy works in the wooden boat industry, and it's been proven too, then saturating wood in a fiberglass boat works too. We arent talking a layup here, we are talking about saturating a peice of plywood to be carpeted over. In the end it would be chaeaper to saturate it with epoxy and no cloth is needed. Much like saturating the plywood pieces in seats being recovered. the epoxy saturated plywood will out last the non saturated plywood by at least 5 years in the same conditions, more if taken care of and covered when not in use.

for cost comparison lets take a simple 4x8 sheet of plywood, 130 a gal for west wystem exopy with hardner, the same covered in polyester is gonna be at least 2-3 gals resin at lets say 40 a gal, plus the cost of the cloth at about 4.50 a lb on average, u will need about 15-20 lbs of cloth,figuring a layer od 1 1/2 oz mat and at least a 1708 on each side,ginding discs, buckets brushes, rollers and acetone, so the total is gonna run about 250-300 dollars. so i dont really see the savings in using poly in this application. Yes u will have to seal all the holes u make to mount things and the screws u attach the floor with but that should be done regardless of the method used to seal the plywood.
 

ondarvr

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Re: Epoxy or Polyester for deck

I just spent the last hour typing a lengthy reply, when I hit submit, everything went blank.

The short answer is.

On custom built wood boats there is great care taken in choosing the "best" wood for the job and also using high quality epoxy. There is also a great deal of attention paid to even the smallest of details, this is normally a labor of love and the results can be very good.

This will be a low cost sheet of plywood and most likely epoxy chosen for it's price.

Low cost plywood will tend to check or crack when epoxy is used without glass, this will happen even faster with polyester, so a layer of cloth should be used with polyester or epoxy, especially on a floor and under carpet.
 

ondarvr

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Re: Epoxy or Polyester for deck

For most aluminum boats that are on a tight budget, I like TD's ( I think it was TD's) method of several coats of paint on all sides of a sheet of plywood with some non skid added. When the paint starts to show some age you can just repaint it. This floor can be done very quickly and for very little money, if it fails in ten years it can be redone again for a low cost. It can be done even faster if you don't attach it with as many screws. If you leave the floor unattached then it can be removed easlily if the boat is left outside all winter, this way the floor may last as long as the aluminum hull. All of these supplies can be purchased at Home depot for less than a $100.00.
 

oops!

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Re: Epoxy or Polyester for deck

for cost comparison lets take a simple 4x8 sheet of plywood, 130 a gal for west wystem exopy with hardner, the same covered in polyester is gonna be at least 2-3 gals resin at lets say 40 a gal, plus the cost of the cloth at about 4.50 a lb on average, u will need about 15-20 lbs of cloth,figuring a layer od 1 1/2 oz mat and at least a 1708 on each side,ginding discs, buckets brushes, rollers and acetone, so the total is gonna run about 250-300 dollars. so i dont really see the savings in using poly in this application. Yes u will have to seal all the holes u make to mount things and the screws u attach the floor with but that should be done regardless of the method used to seal the plywood.

rngale

i must point out a few things in this cost compairison.......i dont mean to challenge your obvious professional knowelege.......

however.....studiies have also shown that to coat a peice of anything with a really good epoxy water seal....it takes 4 coats........one being minimal....2 being a bit better ....three being good and four it allmost triples in water intrusion protection.......that costs bucks......and cannot be done with one gallon......not a snowballs chance...

this isnt a poly vs epoxy thing....as they both are great products....each with there own advantages,

as far as doing a deck with poly and aceitone.....i know your numbers are not correct.
one other thing i noticed was a 1708 layer top and bottom......absolutly not nessary.......you would only add unnessary weight as a 25 oz wrap on the underside of the deck is just plain not nessary...a one oz csm is all that is needed....and thats just to keep the resin from cracking ...as resin by it self is weak.....additional glass product is not needed....it is just to reinforce the resin.
..on the top...1708.......ok.....if you want....but 8 oz is all thats needed.....in a standard poly layup with a roller ..(not vac bagging).....(the type done on these forums by regular joes) the first layer of csm is rich with resin....so a quick follow up layer of 7-8oz woven finishing matt will just about drink up the excess resin from the first layer of csm......thus eliminating adding much more resin.

a deck....sole or floor.....can be done for under 75 dollars......unless your buying at wally world.....in wich.....we all could not afford to restore boats.

epoxy is an exellent product........it has its place.......but the cost vs advantages are not enough that production boat building would use epoxy.....even on the floor.....if it was cost effeciant.........it would be used in production building

dont want to step on anyones toes.....but i dont want our guys here to think they must wrap the underside of a deck with 1708.....it just aint true
 

Stoutcat

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Re: Epoxy or Polyester for deck

Hi all,

Wow... Looks like we've got a small riot going on here... I'll put on my hats of being both a wooden boat builder and an engineer, and see how much worse I can make things...

* Ply for water use: AC min... It uses resorcinol glue for the plies - truly waterproof for the long haul. I've used AC, marine, and okume 1088... Give me the okume 1088 any day.

* Poly vs. epoxy: Poly is good for coating/glassing, though epoxy is better by far far away for all apps.

* When it comes to structural elements, epoxy all the way.

* eBay sells epoxy in 3 gal kits for $60/gal including shipping right to your door...

* Someone mentioned saturation vs. encapsulation... Both are impossible with a roller or brush. Water molecules are like life - they find a way. For long-term usage, the only option is to protect as best you can and find ventilation. Deck plates are wonderful things. (Speaking as a wooden boat guy _ "Boo on carpets!" They're just pretty sponges... In the current vernacular... Pimp my boat.)

Well, that should liven things up as if they needed it...

Alan
 

ondarvr

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Re: Epoxy or Polyester for deck

SC

I actually agree with you.

What happens all too frequently is people hear that epoxy is better in almost every category than polyester and it is, but both serve their intended purposes very well. After reading a few things about epoxy they start thinking it's impervious to water, age, poor design or workmanship and will stick to almost anything. The impression that's left is if they coat whatever it is they're doing with epoxy, there will never be a problem with it again.

People start to compare production line polyester boats with custom built wood and epoxy boats. The differences in the construction between the two are huge. Like I said before, people who build wooden boats tend to love what they're doing and great care is taken in an attempt to choose the right products for the job. They also research the correct methods of building, the results can be a very good boat that can be handed down to the next generation if cared for.

Many production line polyester boats, especially the older ones, were made by poorly trained crews, with the lowest cost materials and a design that had very little thought go into it, which was then modified or changed by this crew as they worked on it. This crew was only looking forward to pay day and beer, not the thought of using this boat with their family for many years to come. Then when this boat fails in some way it's blamed on the resin.

It's odd how these differences will effect the quality of construction.

What I try to get across is that both products work well when used as intended or designed, but both will fail when used incorrectly.

The typical repair being done on this site is a 13' to 20', 20-40 year old boat that was purchased for little or no money and the budget to repair it is even less. Most of the people have never done any fiberglass work before and if they have, it was many years ago and didn't turn out well.

There isn't enough money in these budgets for epoxy, good marine plywood, composite cores, high end fibers and such, and for the most part they aren't needed. If these were high dollar custom built boats that were going to see a great deal of stress, as in racing sailboats or mega HP go fast boats, then the answers would be a little different.

Many people also think they want to fix up this old boat they just got and have it last a lifetime. As the owner learns more about boating and what they actually like about it, the current boat no longer fills the need and they start looking for another boat. What normally happens is the boat gets put back into working condition and in a year or so the boat is sold for far less money than it took to fix it, or is scrapped.

The idea is to use affordable supplies, use good methods and get the boat back on the water in a reasonable amount of time. If done with at least some care and skill, the basic polyester and glass repairs will last at least another 20 years and much longer if the boat is well cared for. When the repairs do fail it's normally from the wood rotting from a leak somewhere, not the polyester coming appart.
 

oops!

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Re: Epoxy or Polyester for deck

SC

I actually agree with you.

What happens all too frequently is people hear that epoxy is better in almost every catagory than polyester and it is, but both serve their intended purposes very well. After reading a few things about epoxy they start thinking it's impervious to water, age, poor design or workmanship and will stick to almost anything. The impression that's left is if they coat whatever it is they're doing with epoxy, there will never be a problem with it again.

People start to compare production line polyester boats with custom built wood and epoxy boats. The differences in the construction between the two are huge. Like I said before, people who build wooden boats tend to love what they're doing and great care is taken in an attempt to choose the right products for the job. They also research the correct methods of building, the results can be a very good boat that can be handed down to the next generation if cared for.

Many production line polyester boats, especially the older ones, were made by poorly trained crews, with the lowest cost materials and a design that had very little thought go into it, which was then modified or changed by this crew as they worked on it. This crew was only looking forward to pay day and beer, not the thought of using this boat with their family for many years to come. Then when this boat fails in some way it's blamed on the resin.

It's odd how these differences will effect the quality of construction.

What I try to get across is that both products work well when used as intended or designed, but both will fail when used incorrectly.

The typical repair being done on this site is a 13' to 20', 20-40 year old boat that was purchased for little or no money and the budget to repair it is even less. Most of the people have never done any fiberglass work before and if they have, it was many years ago and didn't turn out well.

There isn't enough money in these budgets for epoxy, good marine plywood, composite cores, high end fibers and such, and for the most part they aren't needed. If these were high dollar custom built boats that were going to see a great deal of stress, as in racing sailboats or mega HP go fast boats, then the answers would be a little different.

Many people also think they want to fix up this old boat they just got and have it last a lifetime. As the owner learns more about boating and what they actually like about it, the current boat no longer fills the need and they start looking for another boat. What normally happens is the boat gets put back into working condition and in a year or so the boat is sold for far less money than it took to fix it, or is scrapped.

The idea is to use affordable supplies, use good methods and get the boat back on the water in a reasonable amount of time. If done with at least some care and skill, the basic polyester and glass repairs will last at least another 20 years and much longer if the boat is well cared for. When the repairs do fail it's normally from the wood rotting from a leak somewhere, not the polyester coming appart.

this whole post needs to be read by everyone about 4 times.
it is a really good post
 

1beanie

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Re: Epoxy or Polyester for deck

so what type of plywood is recommended then? marine or some other type that will last and what is rec for coating it eposy or poly?
 

oops!

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Re: Epoxy or Polyester for deck

beanie.....it comes down to budget and choice......
i hope we didnt confuse you and the OP.

the ply choices are.....

marine ply.....good....but rare (uasually must be ordered from local home stores) and expencive...(compaired to other options)

pressure treated ply.......again more expencive....MUST be dryed for at least a month.....and never used against alum with out barrier of some sort.

(if you have a tinny....forget the pt)...(if you really want it.....it can be done....pm billp)

exterior grade ply.....good all the way around....cheap....must be encapsulated with glass. and still needs a weak to dry.

as far as resin.....again your choice.....budget will tell.....how long do you want to keep the boat?.......a good exterior ply deck wrapped in poly, and sealed screw holes will last over 20 years if well cared for......


thats why this thread has gone off the rails..........we have a pro glasser.....then we have one of the top glass/gellcoat pros in the entire nation....an engineer....and an enthuistac amature debating in open forum the cost vs effectiveness of apples and oranges....:D

but there is fantastic reading and learning oppertunity here. as the people really know what they are talking about.

i would read the post by ondarvr.....just a few above this one, about 4 times....it is common sence and it is true.
 

oops!

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Re: Epoxy or Polyester for deck

i just read ondarvrs post again......each paragraph.......speaks volumes for this forum
 
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