Fiberglass repairs – Epoxy vs Polyester resins

sdunt

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Sep 11, 2005
Messages
389
OK, I have been studying up on fiberglass repair, reading books, posts on the internet, West system manuals, etc. I wanted to understand what I was getting into before I tear into this project boat of mine. Of course there is this debate going on over the use of epoxies or Polyester resins for fiberglass repairs.<br /><br />And I am not here to solve it I just want to provide some information I have gleaned from several sources.<br /><br />In short what I am planning on doing at the current time is to use both products in my repair.. I will seal all of my plywood components; the stringers, decking, and transom in 2 coats of standard marine epoxy.. Then I plan to install these sealed components into my boat with Polyester resins and standard Fiberglass mats and cloths.<br /><br />Here is my reasoning. Epoxy is more waterproof than Polyester. Epoxy will virtually guarantee that water and mold will not get to the plywood. But Epoxy resins are also double the cost of polyester resins. Epoxy is about $50 a gallon: <br /><br /> http://www.clarkcraft.com/cgi-suppl...esin&*******=7f1f5b445920d7593ea7931b9b817d10 <br /><br /> http://www.shopmaninc.com/epoxy.html <br /><br />Polyester is about approximately $20 a gallon: http://www.shopmaninc.com/polyesters.html <br /><br />Polyester is also designed to go along with ALL types of fiberglass cloth, especially Matting because the polyester can dissolve the binders in the matting, which Epoxy can not. And I know there are special Epoxy matting materials, if you want to pay $$$ for them..<br /><br />I especially want to use matting when I am laminating up the transom on my boat. Currently my 14 foot fiberglass runabout has 2 layers of ¾ inch plywood that are totally delaminated and dry rotted. Fortunately, I can get to and remove the entire transom from the inside of the boat without splitting the deck ,etc – Hopefully.<br /><br />So my plan is to replace the transom with 3 layers of 3/8 ply and matting in between each layer. In order to get these pieces into place I am going to have to cut them in different places and then laminate them back together in the boat..<br /><br />From the outer skin, I plan to lay in:<br />Matting w/polyester resin<br />Epoxy sealed 3/8 inch Plywood (Cut horizontally to get it into place)<br />Matting w/polyester<br />Epoxy sealed 3/8 inch Plywood (Cut vertically)<br />Matting w/polyester<br />Epoxy sealed 3/8 inch Plywood (Cut to fit with add-on Blocks)<br />Matting w/polyester<br />2 Layers of roving / cloth with Polyester resin to finish the job.<br /><br />In reading Allan Vaitses book, “The Fiberglass boat repair manual” he makes an interesting observation in Chapter 3 on page 56 that Polyester resin and fiberglass DO NOT stick well to wood; “Wood shrinks and swells as its moisture content changes and glass that is laid up on it does not (shrink and swell); they therefore simply won’t stick together through many shrinking and swelling cycles” He even goes on to say that polyester should be MECHANCIALLY fastened to wood instead of expecting it to ‘glue’ itself to the wood.<br /><br />Here is a PDF of the pertinent pages so you can read and let me know if I drawing the wrong conclusion from this. http://mysite.verizon.net/sdunt/boat/Tabbing Parts to Fiberglass.pdf <br /><br />That would tend to lead to the conclusion that only Epoxy should be used around wood because of its adhesive properties. But I also found an article from the West Systems Epoxy Works magazine with test data that indicates that Polyester Resin, in this case Gelcoat will stick to Epoxy very well: <br /><br /> http://www.epoxyworks.com/22/polyester.html (The entire Article – Here are the interesting parts)<br /><br />Conclusion <br />The overall effect of moisture on the gelcoat's bond to both the polyester and epoxy panels was negligible. The graphs show very little change in the adhesive strength, and much of the variance is within the tolerance of the test method. When the studs were pulled, the failures occurred in the fairing compound, cohesive failure of the gelcoat, or in the bond between the gelcoat and laminate. Since these three modes of failure occurred under similar loads, it indicates that the strength of the bond is close to the cohesive strength of both the gelcoat and the fairing compound. The nine-week exposure may not simulate what could happen after many years, but it does indicate that the gelcoat bond to epoxy laminates is a good bond and should perform well. <br />Our test clearly demonstrates that polyester gelcoat will bond to a properly prepared WEST SYSTEM® epoxy as well as to a cured polyester laminate. This test confirms that polyester gelcoats can be applied over cured WEST SYSTEM epoxy on repairs below the waterline. <br /><br />So I am taking all of this together to say that I should use Epoxy to seal the wood and that will stop the moisture changes and the shrink / swell cycle, also epoxy will actually soak into and glue itself to the wood. Then because Polyester Resin will stick to the epoxy, its cheaper, it works with all kinds of mattings and cloths, and it sticks well to the original fiberglass, I can use it to assemble and finish the repairs.<br /><br />Can someone in the repair business read this over and let me know if I am nuts. Keep in mind that this is a ‘on the cheap’ repair. I only have $100 in the boat, the outboard and the trailer..<br /><br />Thanks..
 

tr918

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Aug 15, 2004
Messages
153
Re: Fiberglass repairs – Epoxy vs Polyester resins

Welcome to the boards!<br /><br />Make sure when you seal the wood to use a thin, low viscosity epoxy. It will give the wood a chance to soak it up versus encapsulating the wood. You can take regular epoxy and thin it down. I am not in the repair business but have done the same research and come to almost the same conclusion. I know a few guys who do fiberglassing for a living and they told me that polyester does not bond well to epoxy. I do not know how true that is but everything I have read to date has not confirmed this. Good luck.
 

ondarvr

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Apr 6, 2005
Messages
11,527
Re: Fiberglass repairs – Epoxy vs Polyester resins

Welcome sdunt<br /><br />Twice I have done lengthy responses to you on this and deleted them before they were sent, this is a shorter version.<br /><br />It's best not to mix and match poly and epoxy, choose one or the other.<br />You won't be "almost guaranteed" no rot with epoxy, if you do a good job with either one it will out last you. Epoxy is a better glue and is stronger than poly, but every time you screw or drill into it, it will open a pathway for water, if water gets in it may rot, it won't make a difference which one you use.<br />There are also bonding issues, no other supplier of polyester resin or epoxy will recommend poly over epoxy. I talked with West Systems about it, they said that it did work in their lab tests, but it may not be the best way to do a repair or refinish. <br /><br />It sounds like you have looked into doing this type this repair quite a bit, but as you start doing it more questions will come up, people here should be able to answer most of them.<br /><br />Good luck.<br /><br />Like I said this is the short version.
 

sdunt

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Sep 11, 2005
Messages
389
Re: Fiberglass repairs – Epoxy vs Polyester resins

Thanks for the response. The one thing I did not get a sense for from all the reading is that anyone used a process where they 'pre-coated' and sealed plywood with Polyester Resin. Is it appropriate to coat and seal my plywood pieces with Polyester, assuming I sand each piece before I laminate it into place?<br /><br />I guess the question in my mind is: If I sand the epoxy before its laminated in place, is that really that much different than using all Polyester and sanding it before laminating each piece into place?<br /><br />I kind of got a sense in my reading that polyester was somewhat porous and would not seal wood totaly like epoxy will.. I also am shy of epoxy because it does not work well with matting. If someone with experience could say that I can substitute regular cloth for matting with epoxy successfully, I'd look into that.<br /><br />Thanks again for the reply and sharing your experience.
 

crab bait

Captain
Joined
Feb 5, 2002
Messages
3,831
Re: Fiberglass repairs – Epoxy vs Polyester resins

your plan has a MAJOR flaw.. <br /><br />poly DOES NOT stick to epoxy.. <br /><br />epoxy does stick to poly..
 

crab bait

Captain
Joined
Feb 5, 2002
Messages
3,831
Re: Fiberglass repairs – Epoxy vs Polyester resins

i'd get off the 'mat' mode.. an just use ALL epoxy.. <br /><br />just use thin epoxy.. an mix in some silica.. as to make a wet slurry paste.. to laminate the transom plys.. <br /><br />no mat is needed..<br /><br />that bein' said.. NEVER NEVER NEVER use thin epoxy buy itself to adhere ANYTING to ANYTHING.. except fiberglass materials..<br /><br />an only use E-GRADE materials for epoxy ..<br /><br />dude,, your not a pro but an anxious amature.. so do yourself a favor.. don't cut corners.. spend the extra 200 bucs an be right & tite & worry free..<br /><br />go any other way,, cost you more in long run..
 

Fuzzydog

Cadet
Joined
Aug 30, 2004
Messages
20
Re: Fiberglass repairs – Epoxy vs Polyester resins

I also did a lot of research before tackling my 17.5 bowrider renovation. With all due respect to the epoxy crowd, my boat was built in 1969 with poly and lasted 35 years. Even then - there was nothing wrong with the poly itself - it was the wood that had rotted - not because of failure of the poly but because of stupid owner tricks (drilling into the wood and not sealing.<br /><br />If the poly was good enough to build the boat, I'm sure it will be good enough to renew it.<br /><br />Even if poly and epoxy cost the same, I prob would still have gone poly because <br />1. It is much more than "good enough"<br />2. It is easier to work with<br />3. It is kinder to my central nervous system<br /><br />Now that I am almost done i have no regrets at all. My glasswork is very solid and I am confident that nothing short of a serious physical intrusion (ie. accident) is going to pull my boat apart.<br /><br />AND, having done it now, I see a lot of value to being able to use mat. In my opinion, for what it's worth, it made the laminating job much easier.
 

JasonJ

Rear Admiral
Joined
Aug 20, 2001
Messages
4,163
Re: Fiberglass repairs – Epoxy vs Polyester resins

As has been said, you won't get the kind of end result you want if you try to lay poly over epoxy. You really should stick with one agent, be it poly or epoxy. You can rebuild your boat entirely with poly and it will last longer than you need it to. It was never a flaw of poly that causes boats to rot, it is a flaw in how the material was used, and a flaw in how the previous owners cared for the boat. You seal the wood up with poly, and keep the water out, and your end result will be far superior to the original construction. Epoxy has the greater advantage of a better bond, minimal smell, and easier to use. Poly has the advantage of lower price, and will work just fine. It is up to you how you use it, just watch how you use it. Like anything else, the prep is what will determine your outcome anyway, so pay careful attention to that. Good luck...
 

Wimperdink

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Jul 24, 2005
Messages
1,171
Re: Fiberglass repairs – Epoxy vs Polyester resins

This <br /><br />"You can rebuild your boat entirely with poly and it will last longer than you need it to."<br /><br />and this<br /><br />"But Epoxy resins are also double the cost of polyester resins."<br /><br />and this... (my own addition)<br /><br />You can obtain polyester resins from many local stores if you run out... if you live out of a city you may end up having to order more epoxy.<br /><br />are all the reasons I will be sticking with polyester resins. :)
 

chubbs

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Jun 2, 2004
Messages
37
Re: Fiberglass repairs – Epoxy vs Polyester resins

Sdunt.. check out raka.com they have reasonable prices. I'm building a layout out of plywood and I'm going with epoxy
 

BillP

Captain
Joined
Aug 10, 2002
Messages
3,290
Re: Fiberglass repairs – Epoxy vs Polyester resins

Use the same materials your boat mfg did. Seal or glass both sides of all wood. Do a really good glass job...no pinholes or leaks. The boat will last longer than you do.<br /><br />I'm impressed that you read Allan Vaitses book. He has forgotton more about polyester resin and glassing than WEST has ever learned. Vaitses has done more boat construction and follow up years later than WEST has ever dreamed of. Forget about WEST's suggestion to use poly over epoxy. Like already mentioned, WEST is the ONLY company in the whole wide world that says to do it. <br /><br />It is totally wasting time and materials glassing between the layers of transom ply. Even when done there is NO way to keep airbubble out or to insure a good glass job. Clamping won't do it.<br /><br />Don't worry about poly not sticking well to the transoms and stringers. In these applications it is used to "capture" the wood and hold it in place. If you want to help it stick to wood better roughen up the surface. I use an ice pick type device to peck surfaces before glassing. Then coat the surface with thinned resin and glass. <br /><br />ALWAYS use styrene with poly resin for thinning and when wiping surfaces down for glassing. It chemically links poly instead of just cleaning or thinning. Acetone is highly inferior in comparison.<br /><br />Epoxy is more tenacious and gap fills. Use it if you can't prep the old surfaces well or if you want to fill poorly fitted wood parts. Otherwise use poly and don't worry about it.
 

dolluper

Captain
Joined
Jul 19, 2004
Messages
3,904
Re: Fiberglass repairs – Epoxy vs Polyester resins

Also if you go with poly remember there are two types waxed and unwaxed[sometimes called laminating]If you work fast you can use the waxed poly,just make it less hot with the hardener,three pieces to lamininate you will have to fly.So don't get caught up with the nonwaxed poly[laminating] it will not set until the wax is added or you put waxed poly over it.If you want to work slower you can with the waxed poly but you would have to wait for it set then sand before next coat:example hull coat with poly then mat.polyed,plywood polyed clamped or bolted[use bolt holes for engine and drains] let set Whatever you think you can do in about 15 minutes if you end up with anything glassed say plywood with resin on it let it set,then after 4 to 5 hours you can sand and repeat your process of lamination I must stress BEWARE of the nonwaxed poly they call laminating it won't set without the wax it will just stay tacky till the wax is added
 
Top