Getting closer but... UPDATED

[ASCTLC]

On my 1700 Angler SS Lund w/ 115 Suz. 4-stroke, I went from a severely underpropped 13.25 x 15p 3-blade alum to a 13.75 x 17p 4-blade alum Solas Amita.

The motor has a total of 4 possible mounting heights. I have only 1 more hole to drop before it sits in the water as low as it can.

I still vent too bad trying to hammer out of the hole or gun it while slow to mid speed to get to a max speed of 33.6 mph.

Per Kenney's suggestion, I have moved the transducer away from centerline of the boat so it's now 16+" away to eliminate that as a possible cause.

RPMs still hit the rev limiter but only by about 100 rpm. Only a guess cause once you hit the limiter, you can't get higher but it hit it with enough throttle available that I suspect it could hit 6400 rpm if there were no limiter.

I believe the hole shot would be decent if it wouldn't ventilate so bad.

With the motor mounted in the holes it is now, I can trim *all* the way up and get max speed of 33.6 mph

I tried moving the motor up 2 holes (to the second to last hole) to raise the vent plate just above the bottom of the boat to take advantage of the 4-blade. This caused the ventilation to become as bad as it was when I had the small 3-blade on.

The vent plate was still down in the water a small amount when cruising at full speed.

With the motor mounted higher, I had to trim *all* the way down to get any hook up at all and to keep my RPMs from spiking out of control. When I tried to trim up a little, the rpms would shoot up and the boat would slow down. I think I was introducing too much slip when I was doing this. No way to run any other way but with full trim down and being overly gentle with the throttle (like with the extreme undersized 3-blade prop). Raising the stern got me to 35 mph but the speed wasn't worth the extremely severe ventilation. So I put the motor back down where it would bite.

I'm about at my wits end with this

1) What's it take to get "bite" to stop this ventilation???
2) If I go to the 19p Amita, will that load me enough to stop the ventilation?
3) If the 19p Amita loads enough to stop the ventilation and drops my max RPMs down by 200-400 rpms but kills my hole shot, will drilling the small vents forward of the blades now get me back to being unable to just hammer the throttle out of the hole?
4) #2 and #3 above might work if keeping my motor mounted deep down in the water, but I seriously doubt there's any way to get the motor mounted up, so... Do I need another blade style (mfr?) to increase surface area to prevent ventilation?
5) If I want to raise the motor back up to the second to highest setting, do I have to go to something like a 23p prop to drop the rpms, load the prop enough to not vent and to be able to trim up a bit?

I want to stay aluminum if possible due to the rocky nature of the reservoirs I fish and the lower cost of the alum helps but with the performance I'm experiencing with it, I'm about to give up my determination to stay with the *only* 4-blade alum made for my motor.

I fish some very rough water, thus the belief I should maintain a 4-blade solution for the grip and control. Am I over blowing the benefit?

Thanks,
Andy

 

[Esox]

Re: Getting closer but...

Re: Getting closer but...

I have only 1 more hole to drop before it sits in the water as low as it can.

Have you tried it that way yet? If not I would give it a shot and see what the difference is - if any.

 

[ASCTLC]

Re: Getting closer but...

Re: Getting closer but...

Have you tried it that way yet? If not I would give it a shot and see what the difference is - if any.

I haven't tried that yet. Mid trim, the A/V plate is 3/4" below the bottom of the boat. So it seems that to lower the motor more would go opposite of typical advice on this forum.

Could it be that I misinterpret at what trim position I should take the measurement?

Your boat I suspect is a little heavier with the full windshield and all and the 150 hp motor (and a nice boat that is by the way ), what prop size are you running. Just a rough idea kind a thing I'm interested in.

Thanks,
Andy

 

[CharlieB]

Re: Getting closer but...

Re: Getting closer but...

Just a thought,

I've found TWO thrust washers ahead of a prop causing exhaust venting/cavitation. Re-check your thrust washer/spacer to be sure that the prop hub to gearcase clearance is within spec, too much clearance, either radially/diameter or thrust spacing will cause problems much like you are having. The wrong diameter prop hub for your gearcase will cause these same problems.

Propshaft height parallel to and 3 to 3 1/2 " below the bottom of the boat should have you hooking up without cavitating during holeshots.

 

[Esox]

Re: Getting closer but...

Re: Getting closer but...

I haven't tried that yet. Mid trim, the A/V plate is 3/4" below the bottom of the boat. So it seems that to lower the motor more would go opposite of typical advice on this forum.

Could it be that I misinterpret at what trim position I should take the measurement?

Your boat I suspect is a little heavier with the full windshield and all and the 150 hp motor (and a nice boat that is by the way ), what prop size are you running. Just a rough idea kind a thing I'm interested in.

Thanks,
Andy

If the A/V plate is 3/4" below the bottom of the v where its mounted now I wouldn't want to go any lower but who knows, it may help. I'm not sure how much of an effect it has on the results but when measuring the height, the a/v plate should be paralell to the bottom of the boat.

I'm really not sure where to go from here other than maybe try a different prop. Maybe even try a higher pitch - 19-21p. It seems like your still slightly underpropped with the 17p-4bld?

Right now I'm running a 14.5x19 ballistic that suprisingly has given me the best #'s - so far

 

[ASCTLC]

Re: Getting closer but...

Re: Getting closer but...

Thanks guys. I'll go check for additional thrust washers.

For measuring my A/V plate, I've been doing it with it parallel to the boat so sounds like I've not misintereted how to measure. I referred to it as "mid trim" but parallel to the bottom of the boat is what I mean.

Andy

 

[ASCTLC]

Re: Getting closer but...

Re: Getting closer but...

Mike,

As I review old posts, I see that at one time you were comparing the Ballistic to the Turbo 1 and it got me to thinking about maybe trying to approach this from a "Mfr x or Props x, y & z typically perform best for our type of hulls" approach.

Back around June/July you thought the Turbo 1 might have performed better but went back to the Ballistic. Did you find a specific engine position that brought the Ballistic back on top for you? Was there a "Never thought that minor of an adjustement would make such a difference" moment for you?

Also, you stated you sent the Turbo 1 to Precision Prop. Did they find anything with your prop and make changes that improved/degraded performance?

At one point, your description of the Turbo sounds like it might be a prop that would help my situation. And Kenny mentions this hull type benefitting from a "bow lfting prop". I don't believe your hull and mine are very different, if at all. I'm thinking what performs well on yours likely would perform well on mine.

Did you ever get to a 4-blade to compare performance with the 3-bladers you've got? That good hole shot, mid range perf, and grip on the water sounds right up my alley of performance desires considering the rough water I find myself in often.

Thanks,
Andy

 

[Esox]

Re: Getting closer but...

Re: Getting closer but...

Mike,

As I review old posts, I see that at one time you were comparing the Ballistic to the Turbo 1 and it got me to thinking about maybe trying to approach this from a "Mfr x or Props x, y & z typically perform best for our type of hulls" approach.

Back around June/July you thought the Turbo 1 might have performed better but went back to the Ballistic. Did you find a specific engine position that brought the Ballistic back on top for you? Was there a "Never thought that minor of an adjustement would make such a difference" moment for you?

Also, you stated you sent the Turbo 1 to Precision Prop. Did they find anything with your prop and make changes that improved/degraded performance?

At one point, your description of the Turbo sounds like it might be a prop that would help my situation. And Kenny mentions this hull type benefitting from a "bow lfting prop". I don't believe your hull and mine are very different, if at all. I'm thinking what performs well on yours likely would perform well on mine.

Did you ever get to a 4-blade to compare performance with the 3-bladers you've got? That good hole shot, mid range perf, and grip on the water sounds right up my alley of performance desires considering the rough water I find myself in often.

Thanks,
Andy

When I ran the ballistic and turbo 1 I was using a manual jackplate with 5" of setback. I made many runs raising the engine 1/4" at a time untill I found the right height for each prop. For some reason the ballistic outperformed the turbo 1 as far as top end but the turbo 1 blew the ballistic away in holeshot and mid range. I ended up talking to precision about the turbo 1 and they wanted me to send it back so they could look at it because the numbers didn't seem right. I actuall just got the prop back a couple days ago - never heard a word from them so I have no idea if they found something wrong with it. I'll need to call them. As far as the hulls being the similar I'm not too sure. From comparing mine to a pro v mine appears to be a deeper v than the pro v.

If you can get your hands on a t1 to try out I'd say go for it. I'm not sure you necessarily need a 4 blade for running in real rough water. Of the few times I used the t1 I was running in some fairly rough water and it had no problem holding....even at the higher engine heights. I never did run a 4-blade so I'm not sure what the difference would be on my boat. I still have a lot more testing to do and most of it will have to wait till next year. I'm still finishing up the transom and once I get that done I'll probably just go fishing until ice-up - unless I get a tubo lightning

Hope that answers your questions.

P.S. some of the props that kenny recommended for my boat were the turbo 1, merc enertia, raker and turbo lightning.

 

[ASCTLC]

Re: Getting closer but...

Re: Getting closer but...

Thanks again Mike. Whew! I found that your boat is roughly 700 lbs heavier than my 1700 Angler SS! And the hull is likely a bit different. In '02 yours would have an IPS2 and mine only the IPS so likely a significant enough difference to squash the thought of finding some similarity to guage what might work for mine.

While researching the available props from the suggestion list Kenny offered, I find there isn't much to choose from for the Suzuki 4-stroke

I did find on a web site an interesting calculator that gets down to exact make and model boat and all versus the general type/length/motor size calcs.

http://dansdiscountprops.com/BuyNow...=1&boatAltitude=4000&waterSports=1&cruising=1

That sucker has me spec'd for a 13.25 x 21 or even a 23 pitch!!! And at my altitudes 4000 - 5000 '

It only offers the Hustler and Express as the props available but... I see on Iboats that the Solas has a 13 7/8" dia. 3 and 4 blade stainless called the HR Titan. The "sales pitch" sounds good with the high rake and cupping to accomplish what I'm looking for but how they actually relate to other mfrs who just may not mention such in the advertising I don't know.

Thinking out loud... I wonder if the nearly 3/4" greater dia of the Solas would knock the calc suggestion to a 19 & 21 prop...

I'll try starting another post asking if anyone can advise if Solas props tend to raise, drop, or mimic engine load RPMs relative to other prop mfrs of same/similar specs.

Andy

 

[Esox]

Re: Getting closer but...

Re: Getting closer but...

Just did a search here on iboats for props. It looks like the stiletto advantage 1 is available in even pitch numbers for your boat. No idea how that prop would work for your hull but from what I've read here it's a good prop for some applications. I also looked at precisions website and it looks like the turbo 1 is available in even pitches as well. If I were you I would really look at 3 blade props. I'm not sure you really need the 4 blade to stay hooked up in rough water and I think you'll find a better selection with 3 blades. I also think you are going to end up with a little more pitch when you find the right prop. I'm still new to all this so unfortunately I can't really offer much advice. Hopefully someone with some prop experience will chime in here.

 

[ASCTLC]

Re: Getting closer but...

Re: Getting closer but...

While all this searching is leaving me blue in the face, I believe I'm beginning to realize that a "quality" 3-blade might actually be best. I only have experience with 2 inadequate props and now believe my thought processes are being incorrectly influenced when I really haven't even given decent props a chance.

I sent an email to Prec. Props explaining my performance issues and asking their advice. I thought I saw the same (Adv. 1 available) but it would be interesting to hear their suggestion as well.

In a past post, I saw the Adv. II suggested as a good prop for my hull type but since I don't believe that's available for the DF115, my thoughts are "which next performing prop available for the DF115" stands next in line?

The Apollo is also available and I thought in some past posts that might be a well performing prop for my hull (rated 3rd behind the Turbo & Adv II). That'd be nice cause I could use Cabela's points to get it free. I can only afford to reprop this once and a reason I need to ensure I get the right information before jumping in.

Heck, I think I'm even interpreting the Hustler as being decent. Too much reading and loosing my mind to remember it all.

I also thought I saw that the Solas Amita might be a real rpm/HP lugger compared to most other mfr/prop styles of similar dia/pitch. The need to get to the 19p for that prop might actually translate to a 21p in others.

Knowing info like the kind of prop for my hull type would go a long ways with narrowing this all down. Go for max cup and mild rake or mild cup and max rake, or max cup and max rake, or ....... But then again, one mfrs statement of significant cup might be a moderate amount to another.

I'm still not sure if a bow lifter or overall lifter would be my best bet. I'm getting the impression my (our) hull type likes a bow lifter but not sure since there are varying degrees of that lift. The boat ran really smooth with the bow down and wave cutting.

Dry and unrigged, my boat specs at 1115 lbs where most other 17'-18' Lunds weigh roughly 500-700 lbs more. Starting so far lighter should have this 115 engine pushing this thing faster then the 30-33 mph compared to others with much heavier boats and slightly larger engines. But who knows... If I am able to run a 20 or 21 pitch, I'd bet this thing might get into the upper 30s.

I'll post back what I hear (if anything) from Prec. Prop. Should be interesting when we discuss the perf. issues I've been going through.

Andy

 

[Esox]

Re: Getting closer but...

Re: Getting closer but...

I also thought about the apollo for your application. From what I've read the apollo is a decent prop on the right hull. Someone else on here bought a hustler to try out....i could be wrong but i think it was texasmark. It does seem to me that your speed is a little on the slower side for your rig - but I boat at a little over 500 ft elevation so I have no idea how much the altitude your at affects that. It will be interesting to hear what precision has to say.

 

[ASCTLC]

Re: Getting closer but...

Re: Getting closer but...

Charlie, I checked for an additional thrust washer and there's only 1, so that confirms I still need a prop change.

As I continue to research prop choices for my boat/engine combination I'm narrowing down further. There are a few I'm believing would hold my performance solution if I can find a dealer who will allow for exchanges if I keep them in perfect, resellable condition (which isn't a problem for me). Currently I think the order is:

Stiletto Advantage
Apollo XHS
Stiletto BP I
Turning Point Hustler

The order logic is the Advantage has such a reputation for performing for so many boat/engine combinations similar to mine (Lund 1700 Angler SS deep V) that it's hard to believe it won't also solve mine.

The Apollo seems to be very near in performance for my type boat/engine combination that getting it without further cost out of my pocket is appealing. All those saved Cabela's points will buy it but I really don't want to use them for this prop if I've misinterpreted the reading and it's performance isn't really any better for my application than the Hustler.

The Stiletto Bay Pro I because the limited past prop experiences leaving me with a hard time shaking the idea that a 4-blade would perform best on the rough water I fish. And for the Stiletto reputation of performance.

And the Hustler because I'm still interested in an aluminum if possible and the Hustler seems to be one that might actually get me a reasonable amount of lift & grip without the heavy price tag.

All suggestions welcomed and would greatly appreciate if Dhadley or Kenny might offer up any further insights of these choices based on their actual testing.

Andy

 

[Dhadley]

Re: Getting closer but...

Re: Getting closer but...

The fact that you can use 100% of your trim range without slipping indicates the motor is too low (for a given prop on a given rig). The venting on holeshot indicates it's too high. Combining bot scenarios indicates there is something causing the prop to vent. The transducer was a good suggestion but now that it's moved we know it's OK. Is there anything else on the transom? Anything besdie the motor? Bait wells? Tabs? Livewell scoops?

Now, if the holeshot venting might be attributed to an aluminum prop. But being that low it'd have to be a terrible design.

 

[ASCTLC]

Re: Getting closer but...

Re: Getting closer but...

I just looked and it's as smooth on the bottom as a Lund's "baby's-butt" can get. Nothing there to interfere with the water.

On the back of the transom is the bilge plug, a livewell drain (I don't use that livewell so no aeration contribution), and the intake for the livewell. But all of these are above the bottom of the boat and not in the path of the water.

The first prop (3-blade 13 1/4 x 15 that came with the boat) was so underpropped for this boat that I don't even really count it as a blade that's been tried. So that leaves just 1 reasonable blade that's been tried on my boat and that's the 13 3/4 x 17 Amita 4-blade aluminum.

Perhaps the Amita is a blade design that is prone to venting too easily like a Ballistic or some others know for being somewhat easy venters? That would be great if they are known for that as I'll feel a little better knowing that I just tried a design that hind sight would suggest I shouldn't have.

Another thought is that if I didn't trim all the way up when the motor sat way down where it is now, the max rpms were around 6200 (200 above recommended max for this engine).

Thanks,
Andy

 

[ASCTLC]

Re: Getting closer but...

Re: Getting closer but...

OK, I think I have the right blade now. I bought the 13x21 MW Apollo 3-blade stainless knowing I could return it for the 13 1/8 x 19 if needed.

Whew...now that's what I'm talkin about! I didn't test a lot because: we launched with only about 1.5 hours of day light left and started snowing heavily as we were launching the boat, we went to fish, and my brother in law is deathly afraid of water so I didn't push too much with a touch of what I believe might be chine walk going on. Man I love Walleye fishing!!!

Let me start by explaining my trim gauge so you know the reference I'm using as I as I explain my performance relative to trim levels. The gauge has 5 marks; one for neutral trim, one for max up and one in between to show half up. Then one for max down and one in between to show half down.

When I hammer the throttle the RPMs shoot to just about 4700 and very quickly up to 5200, jumping out of the hole and on plane in less than 3 seconds if I have it trimmed about 3/4 of the way to max trim. Slight ventilation if I am trimmed only half way down (per the gauge). My throttle hammering is lowest RPM in gear and just giving it all it's got as fast as I can.

WOT gets to my max recommended 6000 RPMs trimmed up to about 1/4 of the way per the gauge. The prop begins venting if I trim up any further. Trimmed neutral (not up, not down per the gauge), the RPMs get to about 5800.

And my speed? Best I could see (it was a *very* windy day) 41 to 42 mph! No GPS yesterday but I've already verified my speedo numerous times with the GPS to know it's dead accurate. I was getting what I believe is a little bit of "chine walk"? The boat as a whole just felt like it had a slight *** end waggling going on. Not really bad but noticable.

I calculate this to be about 8.5% slip with the DF115's 2.59 gear ratio. I'm guessing that getting my bow up out of the water more might reduce my prop slip a little.

You knew there'd be some questions, didn't you

I'm not sure I understand realistic trim levels. Needing 3/4 trim down to hammer out of the hole and only timming up about 1/4 before I can actually hear a change in the sound of the motor as it reaches the level that it introduces vent/slip. Are these trim levels right or instead of 3/4 down and 1/4 range up am I best set to equalize my effective trim range to 1/2 down and 1/2 up?

Do I understand correctly that having the bow down in the water so much at WOT contributes to chine walk?

In past testing, I believe dropping the engine mounting one hole will improve my holeshot without ventilating at a higher trim level (may only have to trim just less than half way down instead of 3/4) and allow me to trim up considerably more at WOT. Will this trimming up more at WOT get my bow up out of the water?

Thanks,
Andy

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Getting closer but... UPDATED

A 17 foot boat with a 115 should be able to easily swing a 19P prop and perhaps a 21. Seems to me a 19 would put you right on the money for RPM. Since prop diameter for any given pitch can vary by a 1/4 inch to 1/2 inch or so, I'd also choose a 19P prop with the little extra diameter. Doesn't change performance much but it may help with maintaining bite.

 

[micel]

Re: Getting closer but... UPDATED

I'd mount engine 2 holes up and try a 4-blade 14.25"x19".The low mid-torque is made up for by the low gear ratio.Ive seen a lund set up this way in canada and had good all around good performance(low 40's wot).