GOT THE LIFTER OUT!!

[scamper]

I would like to thank all the people that responded to my plea for help. Could not have done this with out you.<br />Finished grinding the heads off two rusted bolts on the manifold using the Dremel and mirror. If you have never tried this you should. Lying on your belly looking down at a mirror, and attempting to do brain surgery, well almost. Up is down, in is out, left is right, you get the picture. I felt like a dentist trying to grind those heads off. Got the manifold off, then the valve cover. Couldn’t believe what I saw. No.7 cylinder, both rockers had no push rods under them. I mean no push rods to be found. Took the intake off and there was 1 lifter just laying in the oil galley, the other still in it’s hole and the push rods where in 6 pieces in the oil galley. The lifter that was still in the hole came out easily. Cam was in good shape. Could not depress either lifter, acted like they were solid. Don’t understand (1). Why were the lifters solid. (2). Could the lifter noise I heard be caused by the cam striking the lifter that was in the hole even though the push rod was not in the valve train any longer? (3). The engine was run with too much oil. Could this have anything to do with it? (4) If not what could have caused this? Now<br />when replacing the lifters how do I pump the new ones up without a tool? What do you use to hold the intake gaskets in place while trying to set the manifold?<br />I feel so good right now I believe I’ll just belly up to the bar and toast this whole situation.

 

[Pilot954]

Re: GOT THE LIFTER OUT!!

OK Here goes.....<br />1. Lifters are very hard to compress since they are filled with oil, it is possible that you just werent using enough force.<br />2. Yes, very possible.<br />3. No, too much oil causes foaming, not good, If the oil level is too high the crankshaft will start agitating the oil like an egg beater. Since the oil is thick it will trap the air bubbles in it, then the oil pump will start circulating air/oil. again not good<br />4. Being both push rods where shattered on the same cylinder, it would be safe to assume that for some reason the valves did not open. Since something has to give it destroys the pushrods or the rocker arms. <br />I would replace both Lifters, Pushrods, Rocker Arms as they all have sustained a great load and could cause you problems down the road.<br />To "Pump Up" the new lifter, take a coffee can and put the lifter in the center of it. Fill the can with Transmission fluid (its thinner than oil so it makes it easier) till the lifter is covered with oil. Take a pushrod and depress the center of the lifter till no more air bubbles come out. Be carefull it takes alot of pressure to depress the lifter, if you dont push down exactly up and down the lifter will shoot out from under the pushrod and you will slam your hand/arm on the edge of the can. I found this out many times the hard way. <br />For the gasket I always use Perm-a-Tex gasket sealant, some prefer RTV silacone, but either one will work. Put some on the front and rear gaskets only!! Then put all gaskets in place, the 2 gaskets that fit on the heads will have tabs on the bottom ends that will fit into slots on the front and rear gaskets. At those 4 places where each gasket touch put Perm-a-Tex on both sides, this will guard against an oil leak at those mating surfaces. Plus it also holds the gaskets in place. The hardest part is lowering the manifold straight down, if you hit one side first it can slide that gasket out of place.<br />I know this was long winded, but I hope it helps you.<br />Happy Boating!!!

 

[kenimpzoom]

Re: GOT THE LIFTER OUT!!

I am wondering what caused this to happen in the first place. Need to find that out, or the same thing will happen. Something really weird happened on that #7.<br /><br />Do you have a hydrualic cam or hydrualic roller cam?<br /><br />Did you happen to notice the position of the rocker nuts, were they tightend down a smialr amount as the other ones? Do you have screw in rocker arm studs (cant remember on BB Chevy, I thought they all are). If they are pressed in, are they sticking up higher than the rest.<br /><br />Check to make sure your valves move easily up and down. Check to make sure the keepers didnt pull through the retainers. Is a spring broken? Is there something that would have caused the valve to bind?<br /><br />Ken

 

[scamper]

Re: GOT THE LIFTER OUT!!

Hey Ken, naturally I’m wondering what happened in no.7 myself. Can’t go back together until I find out. Don’t know if I have a hydraulic cam or hydraulic roller cam. Will go back to the boat this morning and look at the rocker nuts. What’s the best way to check if the valves are moving properly? I don’t want to disconnect something and have the valve drop into the cylinder. The only thing out of the ordinary was too much oil in the crankcase but Pilot954 stated that he didn’t that had anything to with it. He also thinks the valves didn’t open. I did take a piece of broken push rod and placed it on the lifter and hit it with a hammer and the lifter didn’t budge. Now sitting here a don’t know if I hit it hard enough. When I get back down there will try this again. If indeed the lifters were not compressing, would the lack of slack be enough to cause the push rods to bend? Even if this was the case, what happened to the lifter for them not to compress. The only other thing is one of the lifters was lying in the oil galley. When it came out of the hole, could it have caused the other push rod to get bent? I don’t know. I’m hoping someone will post and say, “ the same thing happened to me and this is what caused it”.

 

[kenimpzoom]

Re: GOT THE LIFTER OUT!!

You can check the valves by tightening a box end wrench down with the rocker arm stud using a big washer. Use the wrench to pry down on the valve.<br /><br />Just be careful to pry down on the valve stem, not the retainers. I doubt it would happen but you could cause the keepers to fall off.<br /><br />Also check to maker sure all the valve stem tips are at the same height. It is poissible to pull the keepers through the retainers.<br /><br />The retainers are the large washer things that fit on top of the springs about an inch in diameter. The keepers are the little half circle things that attach directly to the valve stem. Each one is about the size of a fingernail.<br /><br />Ken

 

[scamper]

Re: GOT THE LIFTER OUT!!

Just got back from the boat. Took a piece of 2x4, placed it on top on the valve stem, hit it with a hammer and could feel the spring move. Guess that really doesn’t tell much. However, I took the lifters, placed them on concrete, took what was left of one of the push rods and hammered it, really hammered it, nothing happened. The lifter didn’t move at all. So I know the lifters are not working. So I guess the questions would be:<br />1. What caused the lifters, both in the same cylinder to freeze in the expanded position?<br />2. Did this cause the push rods to fail?

 

[Buttanic]

Re: GOT THE LIFTER OUT!!

To check the lifter use a vise and a peice of the push rod. Squeez in on the lifter and wait a minute or two to see if anything moves. It is imposible to check the lifter the way you were trying . It takes a while under pressure for the lifter to bleed down. Also if you do not have a roller cam putting new lifters on the old cam will lead to premature failure. If the old lifters are good put them back in the original spot they were in. If you aren't sure you will have to put in a new cam and new lifters. If the lifters have a little wheel on one end than you have a roller cam. In that case it would be OK to put in 2 new lifters. It is possible that the failure of one push rod led to the other failing.<br />I had a similar incident in my race car engine.<br /><br />Buttanic

 

[scamper]

Re: GOT THE LIFTER OUT!!

Do I understand correctly? One of the push rods may have failed causing the other to also fail? This would explain both failures in the same hole. This push rod failure may have nothing to do with the lifter? What are some of the things that would cause a push rod to just fail? I have had no luck with this project from the start. I don’t know is I can handle good news at this point. Will try the lifter test you spoke of tomorrow. Don’t have a vice here. How long should it take to collapse? No little wheel on the lifters.

 

[Buttanic]

Re: GOT THE LIFTER OUT!!

Scamper, give me a little history. Is this the original engine, was it ever rebuilt by you or someone else. Was it ever souped up. Sometimes high RPM operation over time will cause a fatigue failure. If the engine was souped up with a high lift cam and stiffer valve springs this would also add to the load on the push rod.<br />When one push rod breaks sometimes a peice of it can get into an ajacent valve spring and jam it and cause the push rod on that valve to break too. Thats what happened to my engine. <br /><br />Buttanic

 

[kenimpzoom]

Re: GOT THE LIFTER OUT!!

I would inspect the heck out of the push rods to see if you can determine where they first broke off. Do the tips look bad? Are there any gouges in them? Do you have pushrod guide plates? I am wondering if they got bent somehow, then began to wear by contacting the side of the head, and then eventually broke.<br /><br />One other thing, perhaps there was some water ingestion and that caused the pushrods to bend.<br /><br />I have heard differening opinons on weather or not you can put new lifters on an old cam.<br /><br />One other thing, is there a possibility that you have a solid lifter cam? I dont know if these were ever put on marine engines (I doubt it), but who knows.<br /><br />I could come take a look sometime Wednesday evening if you like.<br /><br />Ken

 

[scamper]

Re: GOT THE LIFTER OUT!!

It is the original engines. 930 hours. The people I bought it from said they were overhauled, I tend to believe this for the oil galley is super clean, valve covers look new inside and the engines run very strong. Because if the difficulty of getting to the starboard side of the port engine (bad engine) I have not checked the compression and up to this point have not needed to. They are not souped. One rod is in three pieces. The first piece (top maybe bottom) is app. 4 1/4“ long with the slightest of bend. The next piece is 3” long and looks straight. The next piece is 1 ¾” with a bend in the first ¼” then straight to the end. No damage to the ends. The second rod, first piece is about 6 ½” with a bend 4” down then starting to bend back where it broke. There is evidence of heat at that first bend 4” down. The next piece is 3” long bent almost in the middle 20degrees, then straight to the end. The end of the 6 ½ piece appears to roughed up a bit but is still round. One piece was still in the rod hole going into the head but when I tried to pull it out it fell into to oil galley. All the other pieces were in the oil galley. One lifter was lying next to the lifter hole in the bottom of the galley, the other still in the hole. Don’t know if this helps you or anyone else to try to figure out what happened.<br />Ken, I can’t see any evidence of water. All the tips look good cept the one described above. There appears to be a guide of sorts as the rod goes through the block about a ¼ of an inch or so above the block. These lifters are hydraulic. I can do better on the weekend but if Wednesday is all you have, I can do it after 3:30. If there is any more information needed please let me know.

 

[K Hultgre]

Re: GOT THE LIFTER OUT!!

Have you attempted to piece together the push rod that failed in six pieces? Is it the identical length of the other one, missing any chunks? Hate to have fragements running around inside the engine.<br />If I remember correctly the hydraulic lifters are made up of 4 pieces (lifter body, spring, cup, retainer clip). You should be able to compress the lifter just enough to pop the retainer clip with a small screwdriver then the everything goes "boing". Drain the oil out of the lifter (look for metal fragements and examine parts for unusual wear), reinsert the spring, cup and retainer clip. Then try moving the cup, should move easily except for the spring resistance. <br />Lifter laying in the oil galley probably bounced up there after the push rod failed (nothing holding it in place)<br /><br />It would probably be in your best intrest to pull the rocker arms on #7 and try to rotate the valve while looking at the valve stem to check for bent valve. Best way to check would be to pull the head and take the valves out then roll on flat surface.<br />How does the piston look, any evidence of striking the valves or unusual wear on top of the piston like water was leaking in from a cracked head, gasket, or exhaust manifold? <br /><br />Just my $0.02

 

[scamper]

Re: GOT THE LIFTER OUT!!

They are the same length. I tried to beat them with a hammer and old piece of rod to see if they would pump a little but they acted solid. Will try to compress them in a vice tomorrow and take them apart. Head still on block but if need be can be pulled. Appreciate your $0.02

 

[Buttanic]

Re: GOT THE LIFTER OUT!!

Is it possible that if one rod failed first that the rocker arm on the one that failed could have turned sideways enough to get into the adjacent valve spring or rocker arm and jam it causing the second one to break. I know this is possible on a 350 but I don't know about a 454.<br /><br />Buttanic

 

[scamper]

Re: GOT THE LIFTER OUT!!

Good question. Both rocker arms were in the 7 o’clock position. One did not touch the others spring but I will have to go back down there this week end and will see if the rocker could have touched the other rod but I don’t think it can.

 

[Buttanic]

Re: GOT THE LIFTER OUT!!

All so be aware that the intake valve and exhaust valve use different length push rods.<br />I believe the exhaust is the longer of the two.<br /><br />Buttanic

 

[tmclendon]

Re: GOT THE LIFTER OUT!!

I had a lifter 'lock' open like than once, on a 351C ford, TRW lifter. Luckily all it did was hold the valve open (Through all 360 degrees - I was really freaked out when it showed 0 compression, all in all a stuck lifter was about the best thing it could have been!), this was a 9.5:1 engine and I guess there was enough clearance between the piston and the valve. Anyway, I put the bad lifter in a vise with a bolt to depress the pushrod cup, it would not budge. Obviously something major happened inside the lifter.<br /><br />But I'd think the odds of this happening on both lifters of a single cylinder to be pretty astronomical...<br /><br />tm

 

[kenimpzoom]

Re: GOT THE LIFTER OUT!!

I would think removing the valve springs at least would be the prudent thing to do. The really smart thing to do would pull the head.<br /><br />One other option would be to put it all back together with new pushrods and turn it over by hand. If it looks ok, we could then check the compression on that cylinder. If that checks out, you could then cross your fingers and run it till it blows or goes. This is certainly an option since you have your other engine to limp you back home.<br /><br />Ken

 

[Buttanic]

Re: GOT THE LIFTER OUT!!

The movement in a lifter is only about .025 of an inch. Not enough to cause valve to piston contact in a normal engine. I don't feel that in Scamper's case it was the root cause. I would like to know how and when the problem was first noticed . Was it while the engine was already running for a while or was it right after starting it? If it was already running at what RPM was it running. Water in the cylinder could be pretty much ruled out if the engine was running when it happened. Even if the cylinder was full of water at start up I don't believe that would have caused that type of damage. If the cylinder was full of water and both valves were closed the engine would have been in hydraulic lock and would not have been able to turn. If either of the valves were open than the water would would have been forced out the open valve. Usually when damage occures because of water in a cylinder it happens when the cylinder is only partly full and both valves are closed. when the piston slams the water against the closed valves it is a piston that breaks or the head is cracked by the sudden hydraulic pressure.<br /><br />Buttanic

 

[Pilot954]

Re: GOT THE LIFTER OUT!!

Water in the lifter will cause it to "LOCK UP".<br />The best way to find out is take it apart. <br />There is a Picture at the bottom of this link that shows you what the inside should look like.<br /> Hydraulic Lifter <br /><br />Look to see if Rust, Dirt , or some other piece of debris is blocking the holes. <br />Yes, it is possible for one to cause the other break. Did you have alot of lifter noise before it happened??? If so, alot of play in the rocker arm can cause a broken push rod. <br />I would go get 2 new Lifters, Push Rods, Rocker Arms, install them, turn the engine over by hand for 4-5 revolutions watching the valves. If something binds you will know the cause. You can do any harm by hand, dont use the starter, too much torque. If you know the year and make, model of the engine i can research it to see if there is a history of valve train problems.<br />Happy Boating!!