Hard To Start When Cold

[jackstraw_11@yahoo.com]

Hi all, I have a 1996 Four Winns Horizon containing a Volvo Penta 4.3 6 cylinder gas engine with a volvo penta sx cobra outdrive. <br /><br />The short story is I have an extremly hard time starting the engine the first time of the day, once warmed up it starts right up for the rest of the day and have no other noticable problems. Research has led me to believe this is the result of the carb needing a rebuild or a vacumm loss or some fuel problem. Now that spring is coming I would like to know how to proceed should I just start with the carb rebuild?<br /><br />The long story is this started several years back, the engine would always start but stall several times while idleing or at low speed out of the no wake zone. It alway immediately re-started after stalling. Last year I had the boat at a slip and the stalling always occured at the worst time when manuevering in tight quarters. So I decided to let the engine run to warm up for 10 minutes or so prior to leaving the slip. This worked fine for a time but I always needed to restart one or twice because of stalling. I found that if I put the engine in gear and gave it some gas it would run smoother. My starting procedure to this point was to engage the lever to full throttle several times then turn the key with the lever in the nuetral position. Someone suggested disabling the nuetral lock and starting in the fast idle position which is around 10 or 11 oclock. When I did this the engine would run fine for a minute or two then stall. After the stall it would be almost immposible to start. One time I waited half and hour and tried again and then it started (engined flooded?). Another time I had a buddy wiggle the butterfly valve while I cranked, it coughed and sputtered but started. Once again once started it runs fine for the rest of the day, I have no noticeable problems with top speed or acceleration and can restart many times.<br /><br />Thanks in advance for any suggestions on how to proceed. Still have snow cover here in NY but I want to start gathering information since spring is only weeks away

 

[jlinder]

Re: Hard To Start When Cold

First a question: it sounds like you are pumping the gas twice then putting it back in the straight up position to start. Correct?<br /><br />If so, doesn't your throttle have the ability for you to pull on it to disengage the shift mechanism then give it some throttle (move it forward) so you can start it giving it some gas?<br /><br />Now for the rest. Your story leads me to believe that the engine is not running at it's top level, but don't jump to blaming the carb.<br /><br />Have you checked the plugs, plug wires, timing, points (if you have them), cleaning the spark arrestor, or any other service components? <br /><br />These are cheap and easy to check. If they are good you may have to look at the carb, but don't start there.<br /><br />BTW - do you have a carb, or is this fuel injection?

 

[cmyers_uk]

Re: Hard To Start When Cold

I have same engine combo. To start I depress the button in the centre of the throttle leaver and move it forward, this squirts some gas into the carb, I then bring it back to say quarter throttle and start. Keep it at say 1000 rpm while its warms up. <br /><br />Second question when cold how open / shut is your choke it may have been set wide open by some idiot like me when it broke!

 

[trog100]

Re: Hard To Start When Cold

if i tried to start my engine in the idle position from cold it would never start.. all u are doing is flooding the poor brute.. give it some throttle.. <br /><br />your starting problems and your slow running reliability after starting are two different things.. one is down to u doing it wrong the other something else.. which could be as simple as u having the idle speed set too low.. <br /><br />trog100

 

[Don S]

Re: Hard To Start When Cold

Did you know you have a throttle only position on your controls. It will not engage the drive, just allow you to use the throttle.<br />It's usually a button in the center of the shifter or just off to one side, on some the lever itself pulls out about 1/2" (from neutral) then move the throttle lever forward for throttle only control.<br />Carbs, unlike automotive EFI, have to have some throttle when cold in order to keep from flooding themselves out.

 

[jackstraw_11@yahoo.com]

Re: Hard To Start When Cold

Thanks for all the great advice so far maybe my orginal description was not clear but I have attempted to start in both the neutral (idle) position and the throttle only (disabling the neutral lock) position. In either case the engine always starts. <br /><br />After starting in the idle only position it will run for a bit then stall, when attempting to restart it will start then puter for a few seconds then stall again, unless given some throttle. I'm usually not quick enough to disable the neutral lock and give it throttle. I have been able to start in the neutral position then quickly put it in gear giving it throttle and all is fine once underway.<br /><br />After starting in the throttle only position it runs for a minute or so around 1500-2000 rpm then stalls. Once it stalls it will not restart.<br /><br />Hence my dilema I have not found any way which the engine will run for 5 to ten minutes to warm up while docked.<br /><br />Again for the remainder of the day I can easily restart the engine and remain in idle with no problems.

 

[trog100]

Re: Hard To Start When Cold

i have.. disconnect my electric auto choke.. with choke.. in cold weather it fires up instantly but wont keep running till warmed up without several restarts..<br /><br />without choke it needs six or so pumps.. lots of throttle and perhaps two tries in cold winter weather.. in normal summer weather it needs less pumps.. three is enough and mostly it goes first try.. and when it does fire it keeps going without fail at about 1200 rpm till it warmed up..<br /><br />one thing thow.. cars (with carbs) have a high idle speed built in with their choke action.. boats dont have this so it is unreasonable to expect them to keep going with the throttle set at the normal idle position..<br /><br />basically in warmish weather u do not need choke at all.. three or four pumps of the throttle is enough to provide that needed initial rich start mixture.. if u had a manual choke fitted u would most likely not use it during summer months.. sadly auto chokes do not give u this option..<br /><br />with a manual choke again it could be used to make the initial cold start easier and then turned off for the warm up.. with auto chokes u are stuck with them in operation for far too long.. if anyone is old enough to remember having used manual chokes they will know exactly what i mean.. he he he..<br /><br />i have exactly the same problem as u.. lots of manouvering before i can move off properly so i need my engine warm and idling reliably before i start doing this.. <br /><br />trog100

 

[Don S]

Re: Hard To Start When Cold

Wonder if you might have carb ice. Around 35° to 40° with any humidity, and your carb will ice up the throttle plates. Running it for 5 to 10 minutes should warm the engine and carb enough for it to thaw out in a couple of minutes then see if it starts better.<br />When it dies, pull the flame arrester and see if the throttle plates are white with frost.

 

[cobra 3.0]

Re: Hard To Start When Cold

Its definitely a carb problem. Maybe you do need a rebuild...maybe not. You could also just have a dirty carb. Have you ever sprayed carb cleaner in it to clean it out? Add some carb cleaner to the tank too. This may be enough.<br /><br />I too have had problems with my carb on my 1986 3.0 cobra. Simply carb cleaning worked for me...and mildly adjusting the auto choke too.

 

[jackstraw_11@yahoo.com]

Re: Hard To Start When Cold

Thanks for keeping the information flowing<br /><br />Trog - how would I tell if the electric auto choke is working correctly or not. Should I disconnect it as a test to see if it solves the problem.<br /><br />Don - this happens in August with temps in the 90's.<br /><br />Cobra - A good cleaning probably wouldn't hurt, sounds like the first thing to try.

 

[trog100]

Re: Hard To Start When Cold

tom.. i think i am little biased towards so called automatic chokes.. i think they are crude devices and with the exeption of very cold weather operation u are better off without the things..<br /><br />u can by simply loosening a few screws (three on mine) rotate the retaining cover anti-clockwise about a third of a turn and de-activate them..<br /><br />still as i said i am biased and just do not like the things.. i nver have..<br /><br />a perfect choke would be manually operated.. u decide whether or not its needed.. the first part of the operation would simply bring in a fast idle cam.. more would bring in the choke in proggrssive amounts.. u should be able to back off choke as soon as the engine fires onto the fast idle cam for warm up..<br /><br />show me an automatic choke that can do all this and i might change my mind about em..<br /><br />basically the ability to use the accelerator pump to squirt neat fuel as and when required into the carb barrel does remove the need for the things.. thankfully.. he he<br /><br />i hate automatic chokes they really do have nothing going for em except perhaps they help those who are too lazy or unable to pull a knob on the dashboard.. <br /><br />trog100

 

[cmyers_uk]

Re: Hard To Start When Cold

Hence my dilema I have not found any way which the engine will run for 5 to ten minutes to warm up while docked.

<br /><br />I dont know if Im missing something but you should be able to advance your throttle without putting the engine into gear or disabling the safety device. As per Dons post and my experience I find a fast idle for a couple of mins is all that is needed (mild climate) before it will run at tickover without stalling and thats without choke. <br /><br />You may find this thread interesting reading, I think we have the same engine and choke system. <br /><br /> http://www.iboats.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=24;t=010085

 

[jackstraw_11@yahoo.com]

Re: Hard To Start When Cold

Chris<br /><br />My engine will only turn over if in the neutral (idle) position or by disabling the neutral lock. To disable the neutral lock I depress a round button at the pivot point of the lever and simutaneously move the throttle level forward. Once complete the engine will start and the throttle can be advanced or lowered with the engine running. To get into gear simply return to the idle position then throttle forward and the gears engage.<br /><br />I tried both with no luck, maybe I'm running it to long at fast idle and that is why it stalls. Once it stalls after running at fast idle it typically will not restart.

 

[jlinder]

Re: Hard To Start When Cold

Tom,<br /><br />There is some confusion on your terminology. I suspect what you are calling the neutral lock is in reality disengaging the gears. It has also been refered to at a throttle only position in one of the posts.<br /><br />I don't see an answer to the tune up question. Have you gone through the easy stuff? (plugs, points, timing, dwell, distributer, rotor, etc.)<br /><br />I would still check those first, and then use some carb cleaner as Cobra said. <br /><br />You may still have a carb problem, but this is certainly worth a shot.

 

[Barry the Limey]

Re: Hard To Start When Cold

I think people are missing something here.I had this problem with my Volvo a few years ago. It would start then die restart after a few crankings the die again.<br />Look at the fuel pump. If the boat is left for any length of time it will take a while for the fuel to be pumped up and fill the float chambers fully.<br />Initially I got round this by putting an outboard priming bulb in the fuel line. Not a brilliant solution but it prooved to me that the carbs were not filling with fuel straight away.<br />I've since changed the fuel pump and fitted one with a priming lever.<br />I've not had any prob with starting since.<br />Of course it could be a number of things but if the boat starts and runs after the initial start up/run then I'd look in this area. Have you got the tools to test the fuel pressure delivery of the pump

 

[cmyers_uk]

Re: Hard To Start When Cold

Tom, Im with you now. Good luck

 

[jackstraw_11@yahoo.com]

Re: Hard To Start When Cold

Thanks all again for the information. <br /><br />My take is most likely the choke is not opening and the stalling is due to flooding. It does open at some point given that I don't encounter any problems once warm. How quickly should it open, could this be as simple as changing the adjustment by one index?<br /><br />Chris - thanks for the reference to the other thread. What was your final resolution. Did you replace part of or the entire choke assembly. Would this be included in a re-build kit?

 

[trog100]

Re: Hard To Start When Cold

i would check the other recent thread to see how the things work.. u should turn the cover just far enough for the choke to close fully any more will delay its coming off.. dont have the igition on while doing this and make sure the engine is cold.. take off the arrestor to observe the choke.. <br /><br />trog100

 

[cmyers_uk]

Re: Hard To Start When Cold

Tom,<br /><br />I took it apart just so I could see how they work which is in the other thread. I got it working again but it was opening to quick so I purchased a new one part no 3853992. See this url for the parts diagram <br /><br /> http://volvopentaparts.stemtostern.com/VolvoDiagrams/ShowAssembly.asp?ID=71862 <br /><br />As trog said. There are three philips screws holding the choke on. To adjust it you loosen the three screws, turning the housing in a counterclockwise direction will richen the mixture and make the choke stay on longer. Turning clockwise will lean out the mixture. <br /><br />1st Remove the flame arrestor when engine is cold. Is the choke plate open or closed?<br />2nd If closed start your engine watch the choke plate, over a period of say 5 mins does the choke open?<br />3rd If it doesnt move, Use a meter put the + from meter on the + at the battery and the - from the meter on the neg terminal on the choke. If you get your 12 volts you know the ground from the choke is good. <br />4th Check you have between 6 - 7.5 volts at the + terminal.<br />5th If you have voltage but it still does not open , then you can check the resistance of the choke but it will I suspect be broken just like mine.<br /><br />Just for interest this is the troubleshooting section of the VP manual.<br /><br />Choke Adjustment<br />Choke to lean,<br /><br />1) Poor cold engine performance<br />2) Difficult cold engine starting.<br /><br />Choke Unloader<br />1) Affects cold engine at W.O.T<br />2) Aids starting a flooded engine.<br /><br />If the choke is working I would also be tempted to set the idle mixture. But as you say it only happens when cold I do think the choke may well be the problem.<br /><br /><br />Hope this is of some help<br /><br />regards<br /><br />Chris

 

[trog100]

Re: Hard To Start When Cold

the choke flap isnt solidly mounted its on a very light spring.. at starter cranking speed.. (very slow) the carb dosnt have much "suck" and the flap needs to be fully closed.. as the engine fires up say at a fast idle speed.. the extra "suck" overcomes the light spring and the flap should open a little.. the more throttle u give the engine the more the flap should open.. <br /><br />without the spring factor the engine would simply choke itself to death as soon as the throttle was opened..<br /><br />the electric part simply heats up the bigger spring that puts the choke on and it slowly comes off.. basically the quicker the choke comes off after the intitial engine start up the better.. they invariably stay on too long..<br /><br />they also dont need the engine running to come off.. just the ignition to be switched on for a few minutes..<br /><br />trog100