Hard top for a 14' Niagara? Should I do it?

[Mark_VTfisherman]

So it is just about freezing weather season here in Vermont. Starting by November and all before December the salmon are back in the lake from their annual spawning run (landlocks mostly don't die after spawning) and the fishing gets GOOD!

I have a bimini top I made myself for keeping the sun off and the forward seats/helm mostly dry. But it is TALL (74" from the floor) so I can stand under it and there is not really a practical way to make side curtains.

Therefore I am thinking about building a hardtop for it. I measured a bit yesterday and determined that about 16" over the height of the factory windshield will allow adequate headroom for sitting and not be too tall. But if I enclose it keeping the factory windshield in place I won't have a way to crawl over the bow into the boat (no docks by ice season).

The conceptual solution I came up with was to remove the factory windshield and build something visually acceptable, strong, and with an opening center walk-through for access. I would paint the top white, as well as the sides and windows. Below the windows I envision a 6" or 7" coaming tied in to the MFG front deck and gunwale tops with a 2" wide blue horizontal stripe to break it up and visually reduce the coaming and window height visual impact.

I have seen some pretty cobby and ugly hardtops but delete that mental picture! I am a skilled carpenter and have a good track record of fabricating things that function without forgoing form. I am going to make it retro-looking so I don't lose the character of the boat, probably sticking with the rake and sheer of the factory windshield.

My current seats put my line of site about 7"- 8" over the top of the windshield frame. This is annoying when snowing or raining or extremely cold. The new enclosure will keep me from needing to duck at speed, and will have hinged (venting) 36"x24" windows on both sides with a fabric and clear vinyl curtain at the rear to keep in the BTUs from my little propane heater. The new roof will be about 55" overall from the floor of the boat- tall enough to sit under without cramping and just a couple inches below the garage door opening on the trailer.

We have the Frostbite Salmon Shootout November 3rd and I would like to be enclosed by then. I have one or two cuts of 1/8" plexi on hand- I need 5 24"x36" total. I have 9 1x5x10 red cedar in my lumber storage- more than enough to frame this up. Red cedar isn't the best screw holder but it IS light and weather resistant. And cost free I will need to buy one sheet of 1/4" or 3/8" ACX and the paint.

If I get a chance (not likely LOL) I will sketch it out and upload a scan. It looks good in my mind

What does everyone think? Am I crazy to do it?

 

[sphelps]

Re: Hard top for a 14' Niagara? Should I do it?

Any time you get out of the cold is in my opinion not crazy at all ! Hey whats with the propane heater ? Thats cheating . LOL !
Just kidding ! If you can build it without it being to top heavy or as we say redneck engineered looking ,do ya,ll even have rednecks up there, I would say go for it ! I,m sure you could do a jam up job on it ...

 

[Mark_VTfisherman]

Re: Hard top for a 14' Niagara? Should I do it?

Any time you get out of the cold is in my opinion not crazy at all ! Hey whats with the propane heater ? Thats cheating . LOL !
Just kidding ! If you can build it without it being to top heavy or as we say redneck engineered looking ,do ya,ll even have rednecks up there, I would say go for it ! I,m sure you could do a jam up job on it ...

Well I don't think there is a way to do it that is not "top heavy" looking, but I think some of that can be designed away.
However, I am sure that it won't be redneck engineered, either! I HATE cobby, poorly executed stuff and as you can see from posts with pics of my Niagara all the additions so far are very clean and functional with an eye for form.

I dug out a dozen very dry WRC boards yesterday which are enough to frame it. Screws and a sheet of AC-fir ply will come easily. The plexiglass will hurt the wallet and polycarbonate is WAY to much money anymore. And I probably should 'glass the exterior before painting.

If I actually get a day to start this (by pulling off OEM windshield for a start) I will post photos as a project.

 

[SteveMFG_Oxford]

Re: Hard top for a 14' Niagara? Should I do it?

Sounds like an interesting project!

Sketch it out from different angles. Even if you are no "artist" it will help you think about it. Pre-visualization on paper can reveal serious drawbacks and challenges.

One thing I think about with a hard top is windage ... does it matter? Niagaras are kinda narrow .. right? It will also change the boats "balance" some. Use of light weight materials would be good.

How about a nice spruce framework covered with and aviation type "cloth and dope" fabric? Nice and light, waterproof, paintable and easy to handle for installation and removal. If you want cheap, use the white HD shrink film used for winter storage. Probably last three of four years.

Just a thought ... I'll be interested to see your progress!

I had a blue shrink cover made for a sailboat and got four years out of it.

 

[Mark_VTfisherman]

Re: Hard top for a 14' Niagara? Should I do it?

....if you are no "artist" it will help you think about it. Pre-visualization on paper can reveal serious drawbacks and challenges.

True that! I can "sketch" a little, but I often draw things out with an architect's scale. That's how I built my bimini to be the correct height the first shot. No fooling around guesstimating.

One thing I think about with a hard top is windage...Use of light weight materials would be good. How about a nice spruce framework covered with and aviation type "cloth and dope" fabric? Nice and light, waterproof, paintable and easy to handle for installation and removal...I'll be interested to see your progress.....I had a blue shrink cover made for a sailboat and got four years out of it.

All good thoughts. My biggest thing is that I don't want to make the boat ugly.

The second biggest thing is usability. Adding a roof 30" above the gunwales is just about all a boat that size can stand. Visually. Plus, that yields just enough height for heads to not feel cramped (55" from the floor) but still goes under the garage door opening

After that it's more than just a little clear vinyl and marine fabric... the 16-1/2" over the OEM windshield top is fine, but in winter with the docks at the ramps all pulled you climb in and out over the bow and the windshield. So the predicates removal of the stock MFG windshield and fabricating a 30" windshield with a center entrance. Which means I have to relocate the sonar, compass, gps, and 12v accessory outlet. It needs to be strong enough for highway towing yet light and non-confining on what is in truth a very small boat for how I use it. After all that I need to purchase and fabricate the side and rear curtains that started this whole mess in the first place !!

Truth is the Niagara is probably just not the right boat to do this all to. Size and all the other considerations: why go to all the work (even if my workmanship is good) and labor that will only deliver- say, 30%- of what is required even with the best workmanship and planning? It's like trying to deliver a truckload of topsoil in a hyundai. Can you do it? Sure...:facepalm:

What I REALLY need is an Edinboro Regal to do this project on- Edinboros are pretty tall to begin with so adding enough height to stand under won't be nearly as visually disturbing. And then when you add the fact that an Edinboro will do 4- 5 adults (3- 4 comfortably) as compared to the Niagara which is OK with two, tight with 3 and starting to feel heavy with four... Well I think I have just outgrown the Niagara.

Thanks guys- looking for an Edinboro for cheap!

 

[SteveMFG_Oxford]

Re: Hard top for a 14' Niagara? Should I do it?

Aw heck ... just go for the 19' Caprice. It already has a top. I've actually seen one or two for sale in recent months! Be careful! It's a beast!


Try "Search Tempest" to hunt in Craigslist.

 

[Mark_VTfisherman]

Re: Hard top for a 14' Niagara? Should I do it?

Aw heck ... just go for the 19' Caprice. It already has a top. I've actually seen one or two for sale in recent months! Be careful! It's a beast! Try "Search Tempest" to hunt in Craigslist.

Good tip.

Caprice- I could have bought one on really good shape as far as fiberglass a few years back- no extraneous holes, gouges, etc. But EVERYTHING but the windshield had been removed and it wasn't on a trailer- $300. I was busy and forgot about it a while and then the guy finally answered my follow-up but never confirmed a time to pick it up and never returned my other calls. This one didn't have a "cabin" per se but appeared to have the "traditional" MFG dash and bow deck. But that is in the past...lost.

Problem with a caprice is the sheer size- I tow with a four-cylinder car and have a Jeep CJ that I could tow a bigger boat but the caprice is probably a lot of boat for a Jeep, too. A lot of wind resistance for my regular 50-mile-one-way tows and my 250-mile Oneida trips.

I have settled on the Edinboro as a good mid-sized small boat that will have the size that will make my mods reasonable, the displacement to handle 4 adults, and the volume to accomodate overnighting with compromises instead of struggles.

Long-term I would like my "second boat" to be a 25-footer (Crestliner Sabre hardtop is a close target volume and size-wise) that will stay moored in a public no-cost bay on Champlain. A Sabre will still want heavy mods to suit my uses, though, and for old boats they fetch high dollars. But I guess I know why...

Alternatively, I have considered (yes: dreamed of!) building a 25-foot lobster boat style craft but with more cabin and less deck than a true workboat. While *that* is usually expensive, being here in Vermont has the advantage that I am often able to scrounge and trade for timber, lumber, etc. for little to no cash outlay. I figure once my youngest graduates HS this will be an achievable goal. (powering it will be a financial challenge however!)

There is something about the lines of a New England coast lobster boat. While the above lacks the cabin space one would relish as a non-workboat it does have OK lines as a good start, and nice overhead hardtop. More of a trunk cabin and ample standing headroom forward are attainable. Lengthening the main cabin some without using up necessary fishing space on the open deck is attainable as well. (That's where the Sabre shines: step-up to the helm position and step-down to forward maintains good visibility from the helm, provides storage under the riser, and leaves plenty of deck space aft. In a lobster-style 25-foot class, the riser also allows cover for the inboard without losing usable deck or fish netting access at the transom.) This boat is nearly perfect in cabin length, but lacks the sweep forward (visual appeal) and forward cabin headroom (for use of the trunk cabin for more than just merely a berth)
http://www.campobello.com/senboats/senboats3.html

But I am relishing the thought of modifying an Edinboro! A hardtop and side curtains will make Frostbite Fishing season more enjoyable without creating a too-tall appearing visual impact. Plus, it has adequate displacement to accommodate 3 or 4 fishermen aboard without being cramped and sufficient volume to permit overnight camping with some compromise instead of a space-starved ordeal or the need for a tent! Edinboros, Westfields, and Niagaras all have tremendously enjoyable hull lines and classic looks! While they generally lack style in the foredeck area, the visual impact is so good that whatever the decks lack in appeal is overlooked.

I have two Edinboros to check out- low, low prices on them (really low!), no motor on one and no motor or trailer with the other. (although from the description on the phone the one with the 1965 Johnson 40hp I suspect is actually a Westfield 16 not an Edinboro 18. That, and 40hp seems a little underpowered for an 18.)

Stay tuned! I need to do something to enclose the Niagara for this fall and winter's fishing but I need to do it cheap yet not clunky... In the meantime I need to block up the motor-less Starcraft hull out back so I can use the trailer to retrieve that Edinboro. I may have a line on a running $300 70hp as well...

 

[SteveMFG_Oxford]

Re: Hard top for a 14' Niagara? Should I do it?

I love those "traditional" boats too. Why not go all the way with a Hinckley Picnic Boat?

http://www.hinckleyyachts.com/Jetboats/t37-NPB/t37-NPB.aspx

Yeah Baby, that what I'm talkin about !

Enjoy the search and good luck! Meanwhile, I'm out to view the colored leaves at the lake with my little Oxford!

 

[sphelps]

Re: Hard top for a 14' Niagara? Should I do it?

Wow that Hinckley is amazing !
I didn,t know Edinboro,s had an 18 ft model .. Mine is 16.5 .. I am really pondering some sort of modification to my HT . I can actually see myself taking an unwanted swim trying to retrieve the bow anchor with the HT on ..

 

[SteveMFG_Oxford]

Re: Hard top for a 14' Niagara? Should I do it?

That sure looks great! Love the top and what you did at the stern

Perhaps you should rethink your anchoring technique. Why go up front?

Can't you pre-rig the anchor line at the dock before leaving? Tie it off mid-side or stern, run the anchor rode to the bow to a closeable chock, then keep the anchor and remainder rode in a bucket or basket somewhere behind the top.

When you get where you are going, toss the anchor from mid-deck and let the boat fall back ... then adjust. When leaving, just drive up to the anchor rode, grab the line with a boathook and pull it up at mid-deck. Stow there till you get back to the dock and unrig the line.

I use a similar technique on my 19' sailboat. Sometimes it's a lot safer than going forward!

I have yet to anchor my Oxford.

 

[sphelps]

Re: Hard top for a 14' Niagara? Should I do it?

Yep Steve thats probably a better safer plan . I was never really the sharpest tool in the shed .:facepalm:
Yeh you never have time to anchor the Oxford when your boating all over the world ya know !
At least I don,t have to worry about all the ice on deck the way you and Mark do up there .LOL !

 

[SteveMFG_Oxford]

Re: Hard top for a 14' Niagara? Should I do it?

Ha! Yeah .. world traveler ... I did do about 250 miles with the sailboat this season ... that was good.

I took my wife to Williamsburg, VA for her birthday. Didn't take the Oxford ... but I boy WANTED to! I gave my wife a "break" from my boating craziness! Thursday we go boating to do some "leaf peeping" locally.

 

[Mark_VTfisherman]

Re: Hard top for a 14' Niagara? Should I do it?

Ya, those Hinckleys in the brochure are some sweet sea candy for sure.

Back to reality: I have made multiple calls to a guy I got a lead to for an Edinboro- it is stripped and unrigged, no motor. Perfect! The only thing is other than texting me a couple times he never answers the phone or returns messages I am getting frustrated as the boat fits my budget and all the take-down is already done. I just want to go buy the thing but beyond the STATE I don't even know what town it is! Frustrated...

I think a good project boat would be just what this winter needs. Can't wait and hope the guy calls back tomorrow.

On another note I have the Westfield I located and my friend bought side-by-side with my Niagara in the garage. Doing a little rigging for him and installing a new Lowrance GPS/Sonar, VHF, bilge pump, etc. Surprisingly the Westfield is not that much larger than the Niagara - but it feels much larger and looks that way too. Only about 2" higher than the Niagara from the floor and about 18" longer, but probably 6" or better windshield height.

We had them out on Lake Carmi this summer - the Westfield has a late 60s 40-horse Johnson on it, and my Niagara an '85 Suzuki. I was a good 8mph or more faster than the Westfield due mostly to the higher at-the-prop HP of the newer Suzuki. I think the Johnson 40 is only about 33HP at the prop.

I think the Edinboro 18 was measured at the gunwales- bow peak to transom is about 16-1/2 feet. FYI

In the meantime, my sawzall, drills, grinder, and sander can't wait to start the mods

 

[Mark_VTfisherman]

Re: Hard top for a 14' Niagara? Should I do it?

....didn,t know Edinboro,s had an 18 ft model .. Mine is 16.5 .. I am really pondering some sort of modification to my HT...

Ya, one thing I have learned from being on other boats is that headroom and the ability to move around without stepping over stuff is critical to the joy of use. Headroom to me is important and standing room (to me) is the difference sometimes between tolerance and pleasure in use.

Anyway, other than making the arrangements to pay and pick up an Edinboro hull on a trailer, that is where I am going. I have seen several Edinboros that seem pretty big over the years. Saw one recently that seemed like it was 30" from deck to gunwale tops. So went to look up specs at fiberglassics and that valuable resource with all those brochures has been returning this everytime I try: "Firefox can't find the server at www.fiberglassics.com" I did a whois and the domain is not expired but is apparently been removed from the nameserver table??!

Anyway, I am looking for the following info:
- LOA bow-to-stern measured centerline
- WOA gunwale-to-gunwale (outside)
- deck to hull cap top / gunwale top height
- transom to dash length, front-to-rear; splash well forward edge to dash length, front-to-rear

I was told this hull is 17' long centerline. I was going to look up old brochures as I believe that the Edinboro 18 (18' measured at the top of hull sheer/along the gunwales) would be 16-17' and I wanted to figure this out. The 16-1/2' mentioned is probably an 18 measured along the gunwale.

Thanks!

 

[sphelps]

Re: Hard top for a 14' Niagara? Should I do it?

I,ll measure mine and post it . Not sure what you mean LOA Length on angle ? And WOA ..

 

[Mark_VTfisherman]

Re: Hard top for a 14' Niagara? Should I do it?

I,ll measure mine and post it . Not sure what you mean LOA Length on angle ? And WOA ..

Length Over All - Width Over All. Both measured as along centerline or at right angles to it.

Does anyone know what happened to fiberglassics.com?

No need to measure length. It is back http://www.fiberglassics.com/wiki/images/a/ab/MFGbb004.jpg
16' 6" seems to be the published number in spite of other comments and people who have said their Edinboros are almost 90" wide and measure over 17'. Twelve inches may not seem like much but when you are trying to fit certain elements in a camper or boat sometimes only four more inches can be the difference between 'compromise' and 'usabilty.'
16-1/2' may not provide enough length for my overall goals, but I am still going to pick up the boat if I can reach the current owner to make arrangements. I will do the project for the fun of it and it will be a blast to post a project about it.


But I would still like to know deck to gunwale top measurement as that is not in the literature.

Thanks!

(PS: if anyone has a Westfield but doesn't have the inner side covers, my friends boat I am working on has both sides- and they are being removed. PM me if you wish to purchase. He doesn't want them and I don't want to store them either. Pick up in Vermont and we don't want a lot for them- but they are worth something. Needs new vinyl and trim needs re-fastening. OEM Dove Gray in color.)

 

[sphelps]

Re: Hard top for a 14' Niagara? Should I do it?

This is from the end of the top cap plumb up from transom..

across the total width at splash and dash.

Hooking the bottom of dash to splash.

Around the shape of hull from bow ..

 

[sphelps]

Re: Hard top for a 14' Niagara? Should I do it?

Top of cap to deck.

Hope this helps let me know if you need something else ..

 

[Mark_VTfisherman]

Re: Hard top for a 14' Niagara? Should I do it?

...Hope this helps let me know if you need something else ..

That helps A LOT!!! Thanks!

I am surprised by the width - a lot narrower than I had imagined and the old brochures don't give you all that stuff.

Something else: hmmm. What do you say about the weight? My Niagara shows 500# empty weight on the charts. Edinboro lists 720# but other places I have seen it published at 960#.

My Niagara has two batteries (75# each), electric trolling motor (25#), 12 gals fuel (90#), lots of rods and fishing gear (~100#), two Big Jon electric downriggers (50#?), 40hp motor (175#) and (on my long tows) a coupla hundred pounds of food, cooler, camping gear which puts me at about 1200# +/- which starts to feel about enough for my 2wd 4-cyl car. Do you think the Edinboro is only 700# - which would make me conclude I could tow the Edinboro a coupla hundred miles when I pick it up.

Thoughts?

 

[sphelps]

Re: Hard top for a 14' Niagara? Should I do it?

I,m guessing somewhere between 7 and 800 lbs empty . I.m really not sure ..