Help determining what to replace?

[Tyger23]

All, first time post, and looking for a little advice. I bought a 2003 Four Winns 180 horizon with a 4.3GL-C. it runs good except at WOT, when it sounded like it was spitting. At the end of last season, it was leaking quite a bit of oil from several locations, and I suspected blowby among other things (possibly a blown head gasket).

So, I checked the compression this month, and cinder 4 (center cylinder on starboard) is only at 75psi dry and 90psi wet. All other cylinders are at 125-130. With that being said, I already assume I'm buying a long block (assuming rings are bad), so I'm trying to determine what else needs to be replaced.

I decided to remove the starboard riser because the gasket was showing some minor signs of rust leaks. Well, the
riser internals and the manifold ports all look OK to me, but I'm not sure what I'm looking at. The outside of the riser that inserts in the exhaust tube is rusting. Do you think this needs to be replaced?

While the riser was off, I took a look into the manifold at the exhaust port of cylinder 4. Seems to be a bit more carbon build up there, but I would love to know if you see something more than me:.

Also, the when I took the impeller out, it seemed to have a sheen of oil inside. Any clues?

A little more background info: I have no reason to doubt that just about everything is orignal to the boat. These are likely 2003 headers and risers, although the manifolds look to come from a 4.3GL-P rather than a 4.3GL-C (which is the sticker on my motor). I can tell this because of the location of the drain port. The previous owner(s) have done some bush-fixes in the past, like shoving a wrong sized bolt into the drain hole. The belts look to be vintage 2003 as well, so I believe only the bare essentials were ever done to this boat.

 

[alldodge]

Don't see any issues with reusing the exhaust, and so long as the pump housing is smooth, install new impeller and go boating.

Oil in the pump would come from the drive, power steering pump or from something the PO did. Check things and see if anything shows up

 

[muc]

Agree the exhaust looks good.
Don’t think a head gasket will cause blow-by. Suggest you do a leak down test on #4. Guessing you will find tuliped valve in that cylinder.
Might want to get some dye and a UV light to track down the oil leaks.

You have a running engine right now so don’t jump the gun and start tearing things apart until you’ve done all the testing.
And of coarse, check the stringers and transom for rot before spending any money.

 

[Lou C]

Agree on your exhaust looks great no need to replace that just clean up the sealing surfaces and reassemble with OE VP gaskets.
Listening to it on the vid it sounds like sticking/not sealing valves. As muc said to a leak down test, you might get lucky and be able to just get your heads rebuilt or buying a set or reman heads. Doing a top end overhaul on these simple engines is easy. I did this on my old pre Vortec 3 years ago. Total parts cost was approx $700 for reman heads, marine gaskets and new head bolts.

 

[Tyger23]

Thanks for the suggestions so far! I'll probably do a "poor man's" leak test to see if it's rings/exhaust/intake. Basic premise is to pull the valve cover and rocker arms for that cylinder (removes any cam timing on that cylinder), rubber mallet the exposed valve springs (to make sure they're seated), and shove in some compressed air regulated at about 60PSI (via my compression tester hose). It's basically a leak-down test without the leak-down test kit.

Due to this whole coronavirus lockdown, and my wife's fears, I'm not leaving the house and apparently amazon can't get me an actual leak down tester until May something. So, the poor man's test will at least tell me if it's upper or lower.

Question on the power steering fluid in the impeller: I assume this would indicate a bad PS coolant pipe (or possibly a bad hose or seal near that region)? That seems to be the only place where the two mix. This might also explain why my PS pump was very low when I checked it last week.

Here's a bit more background (and photos attached): I believed blow-by, because by the end of the season I was seeing quite a bit of oil sitting on TOP of the intake manifold. After the season, when I pulled the spark arrestor, I saw quite a bit of oil sitting on top of the carburetor, in the flat area adjacent to the venturis (it's a 2BBL). We're talking a good amount, not something I would have expected to be normal.

The last time I had the engine running (about a week ago), when I was prepping to do an oil change, I noticed fluid dripping from the the bottom of the water intake pipe (the one that covers up the seam of the starboard side head/block junction). That pipe sits directly above the spark plugs, and was blocking any view of where the fluid was coming from. I originally assumed an externally blown head gasket, as the location of the bad cylinder, the oil in the bilge, and this drip started to line up. However, it is entirely possible that this is power steering fluid. It sucks being colorblind sometimes, as I can can't tell what color the fluid is.

Thanks again for all the help here! Sadly, the more I dig in, the more I find bush-fixes that drive me nuts. For example: the zip-tie holding something on behind the choke on the carburetor, and the missing ground strap on the choke. Oh, the joys of a used boat.

 

[alldodge]

I'm unable to determine the oil or type from your pics, just mentioned where oil might come from. If its the ps pump then the pump reservoir would be low or empty

 

[Lou C]

The Volvo has the power steering cooler in that area on the back of the engine. There are 2 oil lines connected to it from the P/S pump and all the cooling water from the transom feed hose goes thru that cooler. So if the PO neglected to drain water out of that hose which is part of winterization then it could have split from feeeze damage. In that case tho you’d see water leaking back there when the engine is running. If no water only oil you might just have s leaking oil line fittings at the cooler. With the exhaust elbow off on that side you should be able to get to it. Leaks back there can also be from the PS actuator which I have heard of on VPs before...

 

[Tyger23]

I'm starting to lean towards that drip being a PS Oil leak. I know the PO had the steering ram replaced at the start of last year, and that's one reason why I was interested in the boat. It's very difficult to get back there, even with the arrestor and the starboard riser removed, but it looks like the installer used "crip-on" clamps rather than "screw-down" clamps. Is that typical?

The photo shows some oily areas around the oil line on the lower side of the cooling unit (the side that comes from the steering arm). It's obviously not the complete smoking gun, but it looks suspect.

 

[Lou C]

Agreed that looks like where the leak is from. You can remove those and get some good quality stainless steel hose clamps. Make sure the hose clamps on both ends of the ps cooler (for the cooling water hose) are tight too. If one of those gets loose you will have an instant overheat.

 

[Tyger23]

Today has been a day of two steps forward and four steps back. Thank you all for supporting this forum!

It dawned on me that the "zip tie" on the carburetor is holding steady the choke actuator. Also, the choke plate/arm assembly is completely missing. Also missing is the vacuum hose that connects the choke assembly to the intake manifold.

I can only assume at this point that the choke was non-functional or causing other issues, so a previous owner/mechanic just removed it altogether.

Now I'm not sure if I just want to buy a new (or refubed) carb or buy the parts to fix this one and potentially run into another issue when I find out why it was removed in the first place.

Knowing this, it almost baffles me that the boat would start right up, even cold.

 

[Lou C]

Parts for a Holley 2bbl which is what you have are easy to find, there is a number stamped on the air horn that you use to order parts. Visit holley.com and start reading.
the op might not have been able to figure out how to make the electric auto choke work. They are pretty simple

 

[QBhoy]

The Volvo has the power steering cooler in that area on the back of the engine. There are 2 oil lines connected to it from the P/S pump and all the cooling water from the transom feed hose goes thru that cooler. So if the PO neglected to drain water out of that hose which is part of winterization then it could have split from feeeze damage. In that case tho you’d see water leaking back there when the engine is running. If no water only oil you might just have s leaking oil line fittings at the cooler. With the exhaust elbow off on that side you should be able to get to it. Leaks back there can also be from the PS actuator which I have heard of on VPs before...

Is the PS cooler not on the other side from the starter ? It has been on any I’ve seen. Could be wrong.

 

[QBhoy]

I’m going to throw an idea in here...
with the original issue of low compression on the centre cylinder on one side...I’d take a guess (given how fresh the riser and exhaust looks), that’s it’s had a previous issue with a rotten riser and it’s had the common issue a while afterwards if allowing a valve to stick. This could cause the symptoms you see.
continuing the optimistic theme...haha...I’d love to think that someone has been a little careless when adding oil into the port rocker cover fill ports and allowed some oil to spill down and onto the hose...wishful thinking perhaps. But hey !!

 

[Lou C]

Is the PS cooler not on the other side from the starter ? It has been on any I’ve seen. Could be wrong.

On Volvos of the mid 90s on up they are often right at the back of the engine right behind the starboard side exhaust elbow

 

[Lou C]

I’m going to throw an idea in here...
with the original issue of low compression on the centre cylinder on one side...I’d take a guess (given how fresh the riser and exhaust looks), that’s it’s had a previous issue with a rotten riser and it’s had the common issue a while afterwards if allowing a valve to stick. This could cause the symptoms you see.
continuing the optimistic theme...haha...I’d love to think that someone has been a little careless when adding oil into the port rocker cover fill ports and allowed some oil to spill down and onto the hose...wishful thinking perhaps. But hey !!

Could be but looking at those exhaust parts either they were just replaced or that is for sure a fresh water boat. The rest of the engine has no corrosion anywhere A 2003 used in salt since new would not look like that. There is clear evidence of a p/s leak on one of the hoses

 

[Tyger23]

Quick update - and happy Easter! Today was a wash, because I found out that my compression tester does not use standard air compressor quick-connects. Anyways - I found a leak-down tester on Amazon that I should get delivered Thursday. Hopefully I can resume the leak-down test this weekend.

I did go to change my out drive gear oil and found out it looked more like the color of lake-water, so there's another blown seal to chase down. Initial guess is the shifting mechanism seal, but I'll probably replace all the common ones I can get to easily and pressure test. I ordered some things to cobble together a pressure test unit, and those should arrive Thursday as well.

Oh - I'm in central Texas, so the boat has (to my knowledge) only ever seen fresh water.

The carb number (looking to order parts) is 75029-1, which Holley has no information on whatsoever. But, using goolge-fu, it looks like it's basically the exact same as the modern 80402-1, but I still haven't found a stand-alone choke plate and arm that are guaranteed to fit. Any clues on this?

 

[Tyger23]

So, the leak down tester arrived today. Seems that my intake valve is leaking.

Do you think this would explain all the oil in the carburetor bowl? Probably, but I would love other opinions.

I did see a lot of crusty crud on my valve rockers. Any ideas what this is? Almost looks like a "stop leak" or something, but it's only on the valves.

​​​​​​On the plus side - I may not need a new engine. But I've got a lot more teardown ahead now. Hopefully I can find a machine shop open. If I manage to get the head off.

 

[alldodge]

Seems that my intake valve is leaking.

Do you think this would explain all the oil in the carburetor bowl?

No, a valve leak will not put oil in a carb

A new motor would be close to 150 on a cylinder, and the 120-130 is ok but they are leaking.

 

[Lou C]

I agree your comp test results are low. On my old engine the were always in the 165-180 range even before I replaced the heads. After I installed the reman heads my comp test results were more consistent 160-170 in all 6. I'd do the leak down on all 6 cyls and see what you get. If the majority of leakage is from the valves then its up to you, you can roll the dice and bolt on a set of reman heads like I did and see what you get. Vortec heads should be very easy to find.
That stuff on ther rockers, it is corrosion? Was there water in the oil? Maybe an intake gasket failure? Water in the oil could have caused valve sticking just like it does when you have a leaky exhaust. Before you take the heads off do a really good diagnostic. Make sure its warmed up with the throttle plate wide open for your comp test and the battery is fully charged. Even when my old engine had blown head gaskets the comp test results were higher...

 

[Tyger23]

I agree your comp test results are low. On my old engine the were always in the 165-180 range even before I replaced the heads. After I installed the reman heads my comp test results were more consistent 160-170 in all 6. I'd do the leak down on all 6 cyls and see what you get.

I'll be fair when I say I don't necessarily trust my $17 amazon special compression tester to be terribly accurate. That being said, I'll do the leak-down on all cylinders.

That stuff on ther rockers, it is corrosion?

No clue. I was hoping for suggestions here.

Was there water in the oil?

Nope. Not in the engine, at lest not since I've owned it. Yes in the outdrive, but that's unrelated.

Maybe an intake gasket failure?

I don't see any signs of that, but I'm not sure how to check outside of a leak-down test. There doesn't appear to be any seepage, etc around the intake manifold.

Water in the oil could have caused valve sticking just like it does when you have a leaky exhaust. Before you take the heads off do a really good diagnostic. Make sure its warmed up with the throttle plate wide open for your comp test and the battery is fully charged. Even when my old engine had blown head gaskets the comp test results were higher...

The engine was good and warmed up when I did the compression test. I went back and looked at my photos of the test, and they were 128, 94, 128, 132, 134, 131 (cylinders 2, 4, 6, 1, 3, 5 respectively). Again, I'm not sure about the $17 amazon special, but I'll try and check my compression tester externally somehow.

I did re-run the compression test on Cylinder 4 with it cold, and I got 75 PSI dry, 92 wet.

No, a valve leak will not put oil in a carb

Then, what does? Because the oil in the carb is significant. I started looking more at the carb yesterday, and I'm guessing an automotive guy who had no clue what they were doing got their hands on this marine carb. The choke pull-off vacuum tube is missing and blocked off, the J-bend tube was replaced with a standard automotive vent, The electric choke ground strap was removed, the choke plate and shaft were removed.

I'm guessing there was an issue causing oil to get into the carb and the carb was choking out. To me, it looks like whoever worked on this thing was trying to treat the symptoms rather than the cause.

I took the carb off last night and was greeted with the picture below. Significant oil under the carb inside the adapter plate. The only way it can get here that I can see is if the gasket was completely saturated (it was) and dripping into the adapter plate voids.

To be fair - I love this learning experience. My backup plan is to go get a new engine. It is budgeted for. I'd rather save money if I can - but if you guys have already seen enough to be significantly concerned, then I'd rather pull the plug and get something I can trust.