Help feul pump removal & install (now will not start)

[Karla45]

I started to disconnect the fuel pump to put new gaskets and diaphgram on and I could not get the hose connected to the pump off the fitting, it has a metal clamp that holds the hose in place, it is the hose that is next to the sediment bowl and screen that goes to the pump. Is there some sort of trick to this Plus when i had almost all the screws out, two small nuts fell out from somewhere and not sure where they go. Also do i need some type of sealant to put on hose fittings when done?. I have a manual but need more input. I have a 1989 force 85HP. Was not able to find these nuts in manual so I have no idea where they need to go.

 

[jerryjerry05]

Re: Help feul pump removal & install

Re: Help feul pump removal & install

The screws you removed,the nuts go on two of them.When you turn it over you will see where they fit.#18 nuts.That's the pump you should have.
You have a sediment bowl on that carb?You shouldn't.It came stock with out one.
THe hose should just twist off.The funny looking clamp just needs pliers and it'll come off.
No sealant on the pump.
Try to post pics when you ask questions it will make it easier.J

 

[Karla45]

Re: Help feul pump removal & install

Re: Help feul pump removal & install

Hey thanks i finally figured it out. THe fuel pump does have what is call bowl, sediment. So i got everything put back on went to start the motor and now it will not start at all. First time I have not been able to start the boat. Checked spark all 3 cyclinders firing. I have gasket that goes over the diaphram and also small round gasket that goes to check valve. I did not take check valve apart or anything but did not notice anywhere where I could put the small round gasket so did not. the old diaphram had a hole in it and had some cracking and hard. I put all parts back on as shown in the daigram you posted. The only thing i can think of is maybe the metal check valve disc got off center of spring or something just not sure.

 

[jason32038]

Re: Help feul pump removal & install (now will not start)

The gasket goes on the base on the powerhead...then the diaphram and the fuel pump on top of everything. Sounds like you didn't use a paper gasket at all since you said you ordered one. There MIGHT be damage to the new diaphram if you tightened the screws too tight IF you didn't use a paper gasket on the bottom. If you primed the engine with the squeezie it should still run for a bit unless the diaphram is damaged again and dumping fuel into the engine. Is the primer bulb getting hard when you squeeze? Don't over squeeze!

 

[Karla45]

Re: Help feul pump removal & install (now will not start)

yes the primer bulb gets hard. THe gasket i put over the diaphram was made of paper. I ordered the parts based on model number so all the parts are correct. I may have overtigtened not sure. The parts are in the right order. I guess i will have to open it back up again. I was trying to be as careful as I could. I had a really hard time getting the clamp back over the hose at the end and maybe i have it to where it is constricting flow just not sure. I had already received the parts. The only gasket i did not install was on the valve with spring, this is small gasket that is round. There was not one there when I disassembled most of the pump. I did not want to disassemble the check valve and cause possible damage. If the small ring gasket is supposed to go between the spring and the metal disc then I guess i will have to do that but first i have to find out if that is where it goes. Any help would be appreciated.

 

[jerryjerry05]

Re: Help feul pump removal & install (now will not start)

Get rid of that spring clamp and replace it with a stainless clamp.Much easier to get on and off.
Just make sure it's assembled right.You figure out where the small nuts go?
The check valve don't touch unless they fall out on their own.
Is the gasket behind the pump on right?
It should start when you squeeze the bulb.
Sometimes I have to tilt my motor all the way up,and push in the choke,turn the key.If it coughs,stop and let it down and try to start again.
The floats seem to stick.No idea why.J

 

[Karla45]

Re: Help feul pump removal & install (now will not start)

The gasket is placed according to the diagram you posted. The diaphram is placed over the cover that has the check valves in it, then gasket, then back cover. The diaphram protrudes out because it is covering the valves. There is a round metal disk on a spring that is loose but the diaphram keeps it from falling off. Is the round metal disk supposed to be loose like that on the spring? Does a gasket go between the spring and disc? Yes, I found the nuts. I wish that the manuals had actual pictures it sure would help. The fuel pump kits come with 3 of the ring gaskets. Where do they go? I am a little confused because the metal disc thing that is over the spring is not in the diagrams. Tryed to start again today but did not take diaphram off just put new stainless clamp on in the event that i strectched the original clamp, would not start. I did not disassemble because i a wanting to wait and get answer on ring gaskets. The only thing i can think that may have happened is that i decarbed the cylinders the other day, the motor started then but maybe i did not get it all out. IF i buy starting fluid how do i use it where do i put it. The noticed the spark plugs have no gas or oil on them right now so I guess something is going wrong.

When i was trying to start the boat i could hear the choke clicking when i engaged it but then after that I would push the choke and did not hear the click. This happend several times. Does this mean that it is flooding or something wrong with choke? I considered that it might be flooding out since most likely carbs had been adjusted to try and compensate for faulty pump. Should I try turning the screws on the carbs just a little if so which way? I not sure what you mean about is the gasket on the pump on the right? Are you talking about small ring gasket or gasket that goes over diaphram?

I just had mechanic tell me he wants to do dino test on my motor, not sure if i should do this. When he cleaned carbs that were clogged up I initally thought he adjusted everything but he did not. Should i do this?

 

[jerryjerry05]

Re: Help feul pump removal & install (now will not start)

You don't really need a Dyno.
If your pushing the choke and nothing happens.Then WD-40 In the actuator/solenoid. Have someone push the key and someone spray WD and move the choke lever.
If you try to start and the choke isin't working then you might not start at all.
The air screw. In to the bottom and out 1 and 1/8th turn out and leave them.
The gasket#2 on the back of the pump.Between the pump and motor.
That spring and disk is necessary. nothing but the pressure of the diaphram is holding it in.It was added later.Just not in the diagram.
There are some parts that arent needed in the kit. If it wasn't in the pump you don't need them.Pics of the stuff you don't need??
Starting fluid in the front of the carbs.1-3 second blast.Then try to start.

Make sure the choke is working.Try it,if not.Then try the starting method I gave earlier. Then the starting fluid.J

 

[Karla45]

Re: Help feul pump removal & install (now will not start)

The gasket i replaced was #16 on the diagram. It seems like I saw #2(spacer plate gasket) in between #16(fuel pump gasket) & 17(fuel pump spacer) and now that i think about it i am pretty sure that is where it was when i took apart, . I did not take number #2 off & replace, just left it there. SHould I have replaced the #2? Will definetly check this out. Thanks for advice on choke. I will try this out. I have some Dupont teflon silicone spray will this work or do i need wd-40? Where is the air screw? Are you talking about carb adjustment screws or something else? When you say turn to bottom do you mean clockwise and by out do you mean counterclockwise. . Hopefully all this will help. I was beginning to feel hopeless after talking to mechanic I thought he had checked everything out but now finding out he just cleaned the carbs and put lub on other parts. I know there is alot of white grease on the the carb arm things but I am thinking he might have put grease on some of the choke mechanisms. I guess it is possible that it is sticking some.

Jerry, did you get that diagram off of boat.net? This is where i ordered my parts and from exact same diagram.

 

[jerryjerry05]

Re: Help feul pump removal & install (now will not start)

Yup boats.net Most places have the same diagram.
#2 if it came off make sure it's back on right.Not needed to replace.
Any spray that can clean it will work.
Too much white grease(Lithium) will gum up the works.
See pic #23 is the air screw.It affects the low speed.
You will need a LONG thin screwdriver unless you remove the cover.There are three holes maybe covered with rubber plugs.
The bottom carb is tricky.There is a hole in the bottom cowl on the front.You need to move the rubber up and put the screwdriver through the hole.
Right clockwise in, counterclockwise out.
The choke is 22 years old it has had fuel and oil on it for years and they gunk up.The spray should clean it out.
Carb cleaner will help clean it out.It reall doesn't need lube.
I don't know what qualifications your mechanic has but some are better than others.I've found most people think they are doing good.Other than the basics,I know nothing about Yamahas so I won't even try to work on them.J
And somepeople shouldn't be let in a tool store. J

 

[Karla45]

Re: Help feul pump removal & install (now will not start)

Can i clean the #2 space plate gasket with carb cleaner? I am just learning about outboard motors. okay i forgot i took some pictures when taking pump apart and it shows that the #2 is in the right place. I took some more photos today so maybe you can help me with knowing where to put grease on choke soloeniod. THe first picture shows the full length of solonoied and arm. THere is alot of grease on this and if you see something that looks like white clump you see a white clump it is the lithium grease he put on. I took another picture close up so you can see where some more grease is. Is this to much grease if so I can remove and use something else. There is also a bunch of grease all around the buttterfly looking thing that is on choke shaft to carbI was wondering if you could tell me where it is that you want me to spray oil so that i do not mess anything up.

I have taken another picture on other side of motor where he greased things and there is a bunch of grease on a spring and in other areas. Should there be grease on that spring? Adjusted carbs, did not start. The choke was clicking like it was supposed to and the choke valves were closing. What it was doing to me the other day was after several times of trying to start the choke would stop clicking. I will try with motor up and then starting fluid to see if i can get it started. Do i have to put the carb cover back on for the motor to start? Also if i have to use starting fluid do i have to take the cover off the carbs to spray into them or is there an easier way to do this?

I also took another picture #4 of some hoses & connections that are on side of carbs and notices one had a split in it and another was not connected all the way up, i have circled in red. I am wondering if air could be getting into the system here? One thing i noticed after i go boat back from mechanic was that the boat was much harder to start then before

 

[jerryjerry05]

Re: Help feul pump removal & install (now will not start)

No grease on the choke solenoid.It will gunk it up.Use carb cleaner or brake cleaner and get all the grease and any residue OFF.
Grease on the springs and linkage won't hurt.Spraying WD or silicone on anything won't hurt.Just notthe choke plunger.
Looking at the pic you have.The front cover has an opening on the other side.Spray it there.Choke valves are called butterflys.
No the cover stays off.
The hoses if cracked needs replacing.Get rid of those old spring clamps and buy new stainless steel clamps.
Make sure the battery is hot,a weak battery will make it hard to start.
Remember what i said about the tilting it up to start.It just might work,J

 

[Karla45]

Re: Help feul pump removal & install (now will not start)

well i still not not get it started. I have not tryed the starting fluid yet. will the boat still start if i have the carb cover off? Also I cleaned all of the grease and build up off the solonoied. THe choke is clicking and closing but after several attempts in a row to start motor the choke will close and no click, if i wait a minute or two then it will start working again. Could this be wires getting to hot or something? I tryed put motor all the way up and still would not start. Took fuel pump apart again to make sure everything was on correctly. Tightened all hoses. Took the inline fuel filter off and used a splicer to see if fuel filter may be causing. Carbs are adjusted to 1 1/8 turns out. when i went to put air hose back onto the fuel pump i did notice that some little pieces of black rubber came off. The hose impulse #20 in diagram has no clamp on it, should it? Is using the starting fluid dangerous? The other day when i disassemble the fuel pump I also disconnected the negative battery cable since i had to move the electrical panel up to get to screws on fuel pump. I check all the wiring on battery cables and they are good. I am now at a loss. Battery has full charge. Could it be an electrical issue since the choke is not working after several start attempts? I am at a loss. To make matters worse I found out today from marine shop that the mechanic i used does not know what he is doing, he used to work there about 10 years ago. The motor does not even sound like it is going to start. It has never been really hard to start. The bulb is hard, i pull handle out and push forward to let it get gas and choke it and nothing. I asked the mechanic who worked on it if he did any adjustments and he did not answer me I asked him because when i got it back it was much harder to start. All of know that he did was clean the carbs and greased different things on the engine.

 

[jerryjerry05]

Re: Help feul pump removal & install (now will not start)

Make sure your getting spark.We know the compression is good.Did you use the choke when you tilted the motor all the way?You have a kill switch?
The carbs. Since it's not starting and you have time.Take them apart.Make sure the needle/seats are good and nothing is sticking.Make sure they are put back together right.Some cleaners soften the rubber in the needle/seat and it will stop the gas from entering.While they are off change the lines between them..
The choke slide, it should be clean and no grease. It should pump up and the ball get hard.Remove the plugs.Use a wire brush and carb/brake cleaner on them.Make sure they are dry.
Fast idle and turn key, push in choke(make sure it works).Then let it turn over for 3 -10 seconds.Nothing then try the starting fluid.
Did the motor backfire or cough? Check the diaphram. Post your results.
Next the flywheel.Is the magnet still glued in place?The key might have sheared.You have the flywheel off?J

 

[Karla45]

Re: Help feul pump removal & install (now will not start)

checked spark other day when would not start, getting spark to all 3 cylinders. whether it is weak i would not be able to say. I have inline spark tester but not sure how bright light is supposed to be in order to judge.

I did choke it when motor all the way up. bulb gets hard
Kill switch stays disconnected on my boat since i cannot find proper key for it. i just reconnect the black and yellow wire if i want to keep it from accidentally starting or to ground out.

When starting it sounds like the kill switch is on just because it does not cough or anything. no backfiring.

Spark plugs several weeks old. will clean anyway. I was going to buy some new plugs today on the chance that the decarb fouled but got at marine shop told me fouled plugs will not keep it from starting, said will just make boat run bad. whether this is true i am not sure, so did not buy new ones.

What do you mean by fast idle? are you talking about pulling handle out and then forward so it will get gas(this is how i usually get it started) or do you mean to just put in full throttle put back into neutral and then try to start. I always choke when trying to start the motor if not started for awhile.

I could have sworn the other day when I was testing the cables that when i put it in full throttle the carb butterflys were moving to horizontal position. Today when i was putting into full throttle the butterflies did not move they just stayed in horizontal position whether it was in nuetral or full throttle. Maybe i am imaginging things or something but should they be moving?

I am very weary about taking carbs apart. The diagram gets a little more complicated than the fuel pump diagram. I am just learning about motors and i get lost with some of the terminology even though i have a manual. I do look at the diagrams but i get confused with them a little. would i have to take the whole 3 carbs off with airbox or could i do this with them attached to motor?

The flywheel is on, that to advanced for me and i do not have proper tools. What magnet and can i see this without having to move anything? could not find in diagram. can i tell if key has been sheared without taking the flywheel off?

I am considering gas went bad even though only 2 weeks old. also, the mechanic emptied my tank and put in 4 gallons but i do not know what oil he used. I put 6 more gallons in. I have portable tank so it is not to hard to empty it.

 

[Karla45]

Re: Help feul pump removal & install (now will not start)

To add to my last post unfortunately there is grease all over the choke shaft, in the picture it is hard to see but towards the top of the shaft there is a big clump of white grease, i would not be suprised if it has not already gotten down into the solonoeid. I will clean that off too. There are big glops of oil everywhere on the other side of the motor. He also said that he greased the cables in the control box, is this okay?

 

[jason32038]

Re: Help feul pump removal & install (now will not start)

The carbs are very easy to take apart and put back together. The hardest part about it is getting the float spring back in (which isnt hard at all). Make sure the floats are adjusted properly. Is there fuel and oil dripping or leaking out of the lower exhaust? Make sure they didnt pour water in your gas tank. Also ethanol actually attracts moisture from the air so you might want to get a water/fuel seperator. If you're getting spark then the kill switch is not activated. If it's cranking then the neutral switch (or rigged wiring) is fine. Going from full throttle to neutral will not prime or do anything with these carbs because they dont have a plunger like car and truck carbs. Choke plates stay horizontal and are at the front of the carbs. You have to look into the carb to see the throttle plates. Also I bought a powerhead from the marina that wasnt coughing or anything either but it was getting spark on all cylinders and timing was close. It turned out that all of the reed valves were bad. Yes 1 cylinder and piston was severely scored but the other 2 were in great condition and had great compression so it should have started with good reeds. I dont see what this guy could have done buy maybe he didnt care and stuck a screwdriver through the carbs and damaged the reeds? I don't know what to think. Check your timing to see if your key is sheared.

 

[Karla45]

Re: Help feul pump removal & install (now will not start)

I do not know how to check timing to see if key is sheared. I would not know what result to look for to know if was sheered. He told me the reeds were in very good condition. I am really new to learning motors so if you do not mind giving more detail it would be much appreciated. I have been looking in manual & on line but not finding anything about key. THere is no oil or gas leaking out of lower exhaust. I have not seen any leaking anywhere on the motor.

Well if he did not adjust things properly when putting the carbs back together after cleaning then it would be possible to make it much harder to start. Second, he told me that he checked compression and compression was 135,135, 80. I think this was compression after carbs were cleaned. He said that he thought the rings were sticking. He put new gas in and took it out like this, told me it got it up to 39mph and that compression had gone up. I asked him "to what" and he said 100. He told me compression would go up after running the boat. I was a little uncomfortable with him bringing back to me with compression not being right but i took his word for it. He said the boat was running great. I get it out in the water and i was very disappointed because still having same issues and now new ones that had never occured before. If he would have really tested the boat out good on water there is no way he could miss the problems. He did not catch that the fuel pump had problem. To him the carbs were dirty so there is the problem and now fixed.

Well the compression did not go up until i decarbed the cylinders and now compression is same on all cylinders. I figured this out by reading manual. It is not comforting to know that he took it out and ran it at wot with low compression. I am sorry but i do believe that there are bad mechanics out there that should not be working on engines. I could go on more but will stop here.

hopefully i can get this figured out. This is second mechanic for my motor and they both did the same thing. Cleaned the carbs took for short run ran it at high speed and gave back with claims that it is running great. I am really weary right now of taking to another mechanic. I may try and tackle the carb thing. I have no idea how to tell whether there is damage to needles or things like that, or how to adjust the float. Any input or ideas always help.

 

[jason32038]

Re: Help feul pump removal & install (now will not start)

You can check to see if the key is still ok by taking out the spark plug on the top cylinder and inserting a screwdriver then you rotate the flywheel clockwise until the piston reaches the top of its travel or when it pushes the screwdriver out as far as it will go. When you reach that point look at the flywheel and top carb. There is a mark on the top carb and the mark should match up to the far right mark on the flywheel. Atleast I think it's the far right mark. I seen your picture of the bad diaphram..there's a possibility that the missing rubber has plugged up the carbs since the mechanic didnt change it before cleaning the carbs. To check floats you have to remove carbs and hold them upside down. The floats should be level with the carb and you should not be able to blow in the fuel inlets with it upside down. If the floats are too high you need to adjust the tab that the needle is connected to.

 

[jerryjerry05]

Re: Help feul pump removal & install (now will not start)

The carbs are simple to remove and go through.
The butterflys on the front of the carbs should only close when the choke is actuated.You try the starting fluid?
The airbox can be taken off then the carbs removed.
Try this.Get a thin 7/16" wrench.When the bulb has been squeezes un do one or more of the carb bowls.See if gas is comming out.Then while it's loose squeeze the bulb again.
Missing rubber from the diaphram wouldn't stop all three from firing.
Do what Jason said about checking the fly wheel timing.If that's ok then use the starting fluid.
I had a 88/85 and it was running great one minute shut it off and wouldn't start.Went through everything and found nothing.Removed the flywheel and found the key sheared.J