home electric question

stl

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Jan 22, 2005
Messages
346
At the moment my tv in the family room is plugged into a non grounded outlet. I will be getting a new tv in the future, so I want to run a grounded line to plug the tv and sound system in. The new set will be protected by a heavy duty surge protector. Just below the family room in the basement there is an old beer fridge that I put on a dedicated 20 amp circuit. Life will be so much easier if I could tap into this line. What is the reason behind a dedicated line to a fridge? Do you think it would be ok to do this. I really don't feel comfortable going into the fuse box.
 

Pascal

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Jul 9, 2002
Messages
252
Re: home electric question

At the moment my tv in the family room is plugged into a non grounded outlet. I will be getting a new tv in the future, so I want to run a grounded line to plug the tv and sound system in. The new set will be protected by a heavy duty surge protector. Just below the family room in the basement there is an old beer fridge that I put on a dedicated 20 amp circuit. Life will be so much easier if I could tap into this line. What is the reason behind a dedicated line to a fridge? Do you think it would be ok to do this. I really don't feel comfortable going into the fuse box.

My understanding is that if here are more outlets on the fridge/freezer circuit there could be an overload that would trip the breaker and the food would spoil. The other possible reason is when the fridge/freezer compressor starts/stops there is the possibility of a voltage fluxuation that can be detrimental to electronics.....

I would consider having a switched light for the room on the tail end of the fridge/freezer circuit as a tell-tale when you enter the room that the circuit hasn't tripped....But then on your circuit you would have a built in tell tale.....

If you are not concerned about having warm beer, go for it.....:)
 

captmello

Captain
Joined
Jun 30, 2008
Messages
3,848
Re: home electric question

Assuming the fridge outlet in your basement is grounded, simply run a ground wire from the ground terminal of the 20A outlet, normally a bare copper wire to your tv outlet box, get a grounded outlet and wire it up. Now you should be grounded all the way to the panel. Don't forget to turn off the Juice before going in!!

good luck!
 

mthieme

Captain
Joined
Oct 6, 2007
Messages
3,270
Re: home electric question

You definitely need to be grounded.
If only the fridge and this outlet are on this same 20A circuit, you should not have a problem.
I share a window AC unit with my AV system on a 20A breaker...no problems.
 

eurolarva

Rear Admiral
Joined
Jun 24, 2003
Messages
4,182
Re: home electric question

Is the electrical box that the outlet for the tv is plugged into metal or plastic? I take it you have a polarized outlet where there is only two prongs and one is bigger then the other?
 

stl

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Jan 22, 2005
Messages
346
Re: home electric question

From what I can tell it is a polarized outlet . I cant move the tv right now to be for sure but all of the other outlets in the house that are non grounded seem to be polarized. I assume it is a metal box. A while back I was in a similar box and it was metal. Let me know what you think.
 

Beefer

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Aug 4, 2008
Messages
1,737
Re: home electric question

Ok, I'll start randomly, but this is based on average homes and electrical requirements, and I strongly recommend all electrical work be done by a licensed electrician.

1. Unless the TV has a 3-pronged plug, you do not need to ground it to the house electrical system. If it's 2-prong, then it is grounded within, and adding a grounded outlet (whether it be at the wall, or via surge protector) will never provide a ground for the TV. That in itself may negate any need to go any further.

2. For surge protection, you can get a 3-prong to 2-prong adapter, and properly connect it (ground it to the box, either with the little tab or wire that it comes with), it will provide the protection you are hoping for.

3. The problem with tapping into the dedicated freezer outlet would be that you will have to run the proper gauge wiring, not typical wire. But, you can just tap into the ground.

4. I'll lay odds that the other 3-pronged outlets in your home are NOT grounded. Unless they are in a newer addition of your home, that a ground was provided for during construction. Even if a new panel was put in, the in-wall wiring would have had to be replaced to actually provide a ground. -pronged outlets are less expensive then 2-pronged, and eliminate the need to go digging looking for the adapter(s), so many people simply switched the receptacle.

5. Another way to provide a 'ground' for a non-grounded outlet is to install a GFCI (Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter) receptacle, and have it wired CORRECTLY for a non-grounded system. It's considered a 'false ground', but it serves it's purpose.

6. When you buy your new TV and entertainment center, see if any of the components are 3-pronged, and worry about it then. Most all electrical appliances (not including major appliances or high AMP items like washers/dryers, fridges, power tools, etc.), do not require a grounded outlet. My guess, is if you walked around your house, you'd find that your computer and related components, microwave, and air conditioner are about the only things you own that require a ground. I'd be surprised if the TV required one. (Keep in mind I have no experience with the new LCD/Plasma TV's)

Grounds were originally (1950's and on) in bathrooms, kitchens, garages, and on dedicated circuits. These are wet locations, or areas where high AMP draw would be common. This still stands true today. Grounds became commonplace throughout the house as the cost to the builder came down and justified it, and, it was a good marketing plan in selling those new homes.

In a nutshell, if the items you are plugging into an outlet are 2-prong, don't worry about the need for a ground. As far as surge protection, there are whole house protectors you can get, and then you'll never have to worry about anything electrical in your house, which is the way I'd go.

In case you're wondering, I've been/was a home inspector for 10 years, I'm certified in numerous areas of home construction/design, and have inspected roughly 12,000 homes. I am in no way an expert, and as I said in the beginning, all electrical work should be performed by a licensed electrician. Electricity kills quickly and quietly.
 

rwise

Captain
Joined
Jul 5, 2001
Messages
3,205
Re: home electric question

Lets see, at the plug
1 Hot wire (Black)
1 neutral wire (white)
1 ground wire (Bare or green)

at the load center
1 Hot wire (output of circuit breaker) (black wire)
1 neutral/ground bar (white wire and bare/green wire)

so one could have a ground (though not correct) by jumping the ground terminal (green) to the white terminal at the new 3 pin outlet, again not considered correct,,,,
but cheep and easy;)
 

SS MAYFLOAT

Admiral
Joined
May 17, 2001
Messages
6,372
Re: home electric question

I would not run any electronics (especially expensive ones) on circuits with any refrigeration/air cond compressors. The surge on the line when the compressor kicks on can drop voltage to other items on the circuit. Some electronics that are sensitive to drops/spikes cannot handle it.

I can see a microwave having its own dedicated circuit, but not a fridge. A residential fridge should be able to share the circuit with some other small appliances that are not influenced by voltage differentials. You can daisy chain a ground from your fridge to the outlet running your TV. A ground is only a redundant source of the neutral in case something happens to the neutral. Its only there to either to trip the breaker in case of a short or protection from electrocution.

For my sensitive electronics (computers and entertainment systems) I ran dedicated lines from my panel to the rooms that they are located in. This just gave me the self insured notion that the circuits will not be interfered by other electrical devices in the home.
 

stl

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Jan 22, 2005
Messages
346
Re: home electric question

Thanks for all of your replies. They have been very helpful. Amost all of the new tvs, plasma and lcd have a three prong grounded plug.So I think I really need a grounded outlet. If I did tap into the fridge line would my tv be protected from voltage fluctuations by the surge protector that I plan on getting?
 

gcboat

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
May 29, 2007
Messages
1,822
Re: home electric question

Thanks for all of your replies. They have been very helpful. Almost all of the new tvs, plasma and lcd have a three prong grounded plug.So I think I really need a grounded outlet. If I did tap into the fridge line would my tv be protected from voltage fluctuations by the surge protector that I plan on getting?

Basically no - your surge protector is designed to protect electrical components from large amounts of stray electricity, such as a lightening strike. They are manufactured to "self destruct" if a really bad strike or just blow the breaker in the unit if a smaller surge. The smaller voltage drops from your situation will - or should I say - would possibly have not effect on your situation. The delicate electronics of these days require a constant power source, without worrying about a big ole' compressor kicking in.
My $.02
 

Beefer

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Aug 4, 2008
Messages
1,737
Re: home electric question

Ok, then looks like you'll need a ground for the outlet. I would forget tapping into the fridge dedicated line, and simply drop a ground wire into the basement and run it to either; a) metal (copper or galvanized) water line or b) run it to the ground buss in your electrical panel. Both are simple processes.
 

stl

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Jan 22, 2005
Messages
346
Re: home electric question

Beefer, Thanks for your replies, your responses have been extremely helpful. Do you think if I ran a ground like you said above I would run into problems with inspection when I sell my house down the road? I was kinda thinking of running a dedicated line and hiring someone to tie it into the box. But your idea is appealing. Easier and cheaper. Let me know what you think.
 

Mark42

Fleet Admiral
Joined
Oct 8, 2003
Messages
9,334
Re: home electric question

From what I can tell it is a polarized outlet . I cant move the tv right now to be for sure but all of the other outlets in the house that are non grounded seem to be polarized. I assume it is a metal box. A while back I was in a similar box and it was metal. Let me know what you think.

Pull off the outlet cover and inspect what is there. I bet it is a metal box with metal sheathed cable (BX). If so, then the box should be grounded via the BX cable. A simple neon bulb tester will determine this by placing one end of the tester in the outlet (the large blade, I think, should be the load) and the other to the metal box. If the tester lights up, then you have a grounded circuit. Turn off the breaker to the box, replace the outlet with a new outlet with ground and attach the ground screw on the outlet to a screw on the metal box with a length of bare copper wire. This will provide a grounded outlet that meets code.

Note: do not use the screws that mount the outlet to the box to attach the copper ground wire. It will work, but won't meet code. You may have to use a sheet metal screw to attach the copper wire to one of the holes in the back of the box.
 

stl

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Jan 22, 2005
Messages
346
Re: home electric question

Pull off the outlet cover and inspect what is there. I bet it is a metal box with metal sheathed cable (BX). If so, then the box should be grounded via the BX cable. A simple neon bulb tester will determine this by placing one end of the tester in the outlet (the large blade, I think, should be the load) and the other to the metal box. If the tester lights up, then you have a grounded circuit. Turn off the breaker to the box, replace the outlet with a new outlet with ground and attach the ground screw on the outlet to a screw on the metal box with a length of bare copper wire. This will provide a grounded outlet that meets code.

Note: do not use the screws that mount the outlet to the box to attach the copper ground wire. It will work, but won't meet code. You may have to use a sheet metal screw to attach the copper wire to one of the holes in the back of the box.

From what I can see there is no metal sheathed cable
 

Mark42

Fleet Admiral
Joined
Oct 8, 2003
Messages
9,334
Re: home electric question

What type of wire is in the house? Is it silver or black cloth jacketed wiring? or the metal coil looking BX cable? Can you see between the box and the wall to determine what type of cable is feeding the box?
 

Xcusme

Commander
Joined
Apr 21, 2003
Messages
2,888
Re: home electric question

A simple neon bulb tester will determine this by placing one end of the tester in the outlet (the large blade, I think, should be the load) and the other to the metal box.

The smaller blade should be the Hot conductor, the Larger blade should be the Neutral.....
 

seven up

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Jun 4, 2006
Messages
275
Re: home electric question

so one could have a ground (though not correct) by jumping the ground terminal (green) to the white terminal at the new 3 pin outlet, again not considered correct,,,,
but cheep and easy;)

Do not attempt this approach. A lamp plugged into the outlet will give you induced voltage across the ground terminal. Not good.
 

Beefer

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Aug 4, 2008
Messages
1,737
Re: home electric question

Do you think if I ran a ground like you said above I would run into problems with inspection when I sell my house down the road?

It shouldn't. As long as it's done properly, there would be no reason to call it out during an inspection, other than just a passing note of information. If you connect to the water pipe, you want to (ideally) connect it to the water main, unless not accessible or possible.

If this does cause a problem for a future buyer, you can always remove it and bring it back to original. :)
 

Mark42

Fleet Admiral
Joined
Oct 8, 2003
Messages
9,334
Re: home electric question

Before you go and make any changes, I suggest you first test the existing setup. Because you don't seem to know what you have by looking, it would pay to test it. Do you have a simple neon bulb tester or multi meter? Get one and first test to see if the box is grounded by connection one test lead to the small prong slot and the other to the box. Also test the large slot just to be sure the outlet is not wired backwards. If it lights you are golden. If not, you know you need a ground.

Until you do at least that much you are just shooting in the dark.
 
Top