Hull Questions

[narukami]

Hello, all.

I'm a newbie to this excellent forum. I'm interested in replacing my 1978 19' Baja bowrider/ski boat with a 22' - 26' boat (deck boat most likely). I've read many of the boat threads from new boat owners (or prospective new boat owners) seeking help in deciding what kind of boat to buy and what manufacturer do you all recommend. All the discussions and recommendations were prefaced with knowing the purpose of the boat. Newbies all want a boat that is all things to all people for all purposes, but we know that no such boat exists. FYI, I'm not new to power-boating, but I've been away from it for a while as I've spent more time over the last ten years sailing on Lake Michigan in a 48 ft yawl than power-boating.

I, too, am looking for a multi-functional boat, primarily for cruising, fishing, entertaining and some water sports (but at 55 yoa, my slalom water-skiing years (days) may be numbered). A deck boat seems a good choice for me, my wife, our dog and our friends. For all intents and purposes, this will be a fresh water boat.

Consequently, I've been trying to research the current state of boat manufacturing. I've read many threads on this site and have also been reading reviews from various "experts". I want to make sure my boat purchase is from a quality manufacturer.

Sorry for taking the long way around the barn, but my research (and this forum) as raised a few questions about hull construction. I'd appreciate any help in resolving the following:

1. "Wood" in fiberglass hull construction v. "no wood" ?

Some commentors have recommended not using manufacturers that still use wood in constructing their fiberglass hulls. However, I've read many articles by David Pascoe about hull construction, although I have not yet read his last edition of "Surveying Fiberglass Power Boats" (it's on my 'to-do" list). David seems to be a knowledgable and reputable source on boat construction. He seems to endorse the use of balsa wood in hull construction over the use of composites for the following reasons, if my understanding of his articles are correct: a) "composites" mean different things to different manufacturers so the consumer (and even the boat surveyor) may not know what manufactured material is used to form the "composite" and b) due to hydrogen erosion et al, the real test for hull integrity is TIME and there has not been much research over time to ascertain if the composites will hold up as well as wood. [Note: David Pascoe himself acknowledges that 1) much of his information is 10 years or more behind the times simply because the boats he surveys tend to be at least that old before he is usually called in to survey them AND 2) he does not survey the typical recreational power boat because not many boat owners have their 20'-30' recreational power boats surveyed.]

Some forum participants have dissed the continued use of "wood" in hull frame construction while some manufacturers, like Ebbtide seem to boast this traditional method. What's the skinny?

2. Many of the recommended manufacturers, like Regal, Crownline, Chapparelle, Sea Ray, etc., use "chopper guns" in building their hulls. Again, David Pascoe does not recommend this method there is a greater probablilty of less structural integrity in the final product than in hand-laid fiberglass. If I recall correctly, David Pascoe attributed the source of many gel-coat blistering problems to this method of hull construction. Crownline boats, as well as others, was plagued with gel-coat blistering complaints...blistering problems that were not covered by the "limited lifetime warranties" of the manufacturers. Most all boat manufacturers gel-coat warranties expire after 5 years, but David Pascoe suggests that such problems may not show up until after the initial 5 year period and that before "chopper guns" and "composites" in hull construction, gel-coat blistering was extremely rare.

How much faith can I have in any hull made by a manufacturer using the "chopper gun" technique?

I appreciate any and all responses to my questions. Thank you in advance for your insights and perspectives on my issues. My apologies for my running-off at the keyboard.

narukami

 

[KCook]

Re: Hull Questions

This is the big problem with the Yachtsurvey site info. It simply does not translate into anything useful when you are shopping for a trailer boat.

Wood - The balsa talked about is found only as a core in hull wall or deck construction. And that is only on CRUISER type boats or expensive custom performance boats. The typical volume production trailer boat builders do not use balsa. They may well still use wood, but it will not be balsa and it will be for framing and fixtures. Also often found in the transom as a core material there, but, again, not the balsa type. Whether wood is good or bad is really a personal preference. Do not make blanket assumptions that blah blah brands use wood in all their models. Many builders are phasing in new construction techniques with new models. So as long as their line of boats is a mix of new and old designs, the wood content, etc, etc, will vary from model to model.

Fiberglass chop - Varies greatly from brand to brand. Some use it pre-processed in a "mat" cloth form, instead of gun. Some have the guns run as robotic fixtures, instead of by hand. A few (very few) still use a lot. Many (almost all) use a little here and there (including Cobalt). Example, you can expect to find more chop in the deck piece than the hull itself. Sweeping assumptions simply are not helpful here.

Short version, you are going to have to approach this brand by brand, model by model. And good luck getting accurate information from salesmen!

Kelly Cook

 

[narukami]

Re: Hull Questions

KCook,

Thank you very much for the information and analysis/evaluation tip(s). The reason I posted on this forum is that I was hoping to get more reliable (or, at least, less biased) information than I get from salesman and/or manufacturer brochures or websites. I am not planning on purchasing a boat for about 9-12 months and I fully intend to do my research, including attending boat shows, dealerships, and boat test runs. At this point I'm trying to narrow the field of potential manufacturers to those that will produce a quality product. (Even an excellent manufacturer can produce an occasional lemon. I just want the odds in my favor as much as possible without having a custom boat built. Nobody, no matter how big or small their budget, wants to pay for poor craftsmanship.)

In doing my initial research of various manufacturers, I am surprised at how few manufacturers actually make such important information as hull construction and detailed warranty information available to the boat buying public. Consequently, I am willing to give some "credit" to those manufacturers who are at least willing to explain (verbally and/or graphically) their basic hull construction process on their website or in their brochures. Obviously, I am much more skeptical of those manufacturers that avoid discussing hull construction altogether.

I also thought it might help me reduce the field by looking at the warranties offered by the different manufacturers. Some make no mention of hull warranty, others will offer 5 year, 10 year or "limited lifetime hull warranty". Some of these are transferable and some not. Interestingly, few manufacturers actually let the public view the details of such "limited lifetime hull warranties". The limitations on some such warranties may surprise a lot of boat buyers who think they are protected from future hull problems.

Again, I appreciate the feedback

Narukami

 

[KCook]

Re: Hull Questions

Since you're looking for a deckboat, that scrambles the "quality" picture a little on its own. As most opinions concerning quality on this and other message boards are really directed toward bowriders. As a very general (vague if you prefer) rule/trend, all builders have been improving their construction quality with time. Thus, newer designs may have some subtle advantages in construction over the older ones, even by the same builder. Just now, for the '08 model year, Regal is introducing two all new deckboat designs. Hint, hint.

Kelly

 

[tashasdaddy]

Re: Hull Questions

this is ours, Chris Craft 230 5.7 L volvo penta SX. seats 13, great for tubing, skiing, fishing etc. potty, sink, shower on swim platform, removeable tables super storage. it is an all glass hull. we looked at all the deck boats, and this one met our needs the best. it's comfortable for the Grands, parents and kids. it's a boat the whole extended family enjoys. we've also been off shore in it.

 

[MikDee]

Re: Hull Questions

I know I've seen it before many times here, but I have to admit, I still admire it, that is an excellent all-around boat tashasdaddy! Good Luck, Mike

 

[narukami]

Re: Hull Questions

Tashasdaddy:

Nice looking boat. Thanks for the review. BTW, what year is it?

In my experience with bowriders, when just cruising or dashing across the lake, the bow seats were the least favorite among the adult passengers, since those guests would be bounced around the most when hitting any chop. Therefore, like musical chairs, the last to sit down got the bow seats.

Have you experienced the same with your deck boat? Would a more forward console and helm, thus reducing the bow area slightly and giving the aft area more space, be preferred to a more aft-positioned helm and console?

 

[tashasdaddy]

Re: Hull Questions

mine is a 1999, no one minds sitting in the bow, and is actually preferred. i have to ask sometimes to get some load to the stearn. Bayliner, 2008 205, and 225 has just done what you have mentioned. it's a totally new boat, the quality is great. i was invited to go to Wisconsin, for the unvailing, and to test drive the new boats. we had a rough weather conditions, and 9 of use put the boats thru the most rigorious abuse we could think of. it is a bow rider, with the deck boat feel. although it does have the head, sink and other ammenities, as the deck boat.

look at as many deck boats as you can, i prefer the volvo power. some brand are limited to the mercruiser, as they are owned by Brunswick. some of the boats have a poor lay out, and seemed crowded.

 

[narukami]

Re: Hull Questions

Tashasdaddy,

Your input is greatly appreciated. FYI, I'm looking at a lot of boats...most online...some up close and personal. Looking forward to the upcoming Chicago boat show to look closely at many models and designs at once.

I previously read your test drive evaluation of the Bayliner. You gave it high marks. The impression I'm getting generally after reading many reviews and threads is that the quality of Bayliner has improved considerably over the last 5-6 years. Nevertheless, they're still struggling to overcome a bad reputation.

Since I believe you get what you pay for...Bayliner's pricing and reputation concerns me a bit. On the one hand, Bayliner's generally lower ticket price may be designed to attract the consumer back to the company. On the other hand, their price may reflect lesser quality materials and fewer quality control checkpoints. Additionally, even if Bayliner boats are extremely well-made, their lingering reputation will still effect the re-sale value of their boats.

 

[narukami]

Re: Hull Questions

Tashasdaddy,

Your input is greatly appreciated. FYI, I'm looking at a lot of boats...most online...some up close and personal. Looking forward to the upcoming Chicago boat show to look closely at many models and designs at once.

I previously read your test drive evaluation of the Bayliner. You gave it high marks. The impression I'm getting generally after reading many reviews and threads is that the quality of Bayliner has improved considerably over the last 5-6 years. Nevertheless, they're still struggling to overcome a bad reputation.

Since I believe you get what you pay for...Bayliner's pricing and reputation concerns me a bit. On the one hand, Bayliner's generally lower ticket price may be designed to attract the consumer back to the company. On the other hand, their price may reflect lesser quality materials and fewer quality control checkpoints. Additionally, even if Bayliner boats are extremely well-made, their lingering reputation will still effect the re-sale value of their boats.

 

[mrfixitman40]

Re: Hull Questions

since we have some expert opinions i was looking at the starcraft calais has anyone heard anything about the quality and feel of them?

 

[luckyinkentucky]

Re: Hull Questions

I worked at a dealership as a sales manager not too long ago that sold all of the below boats. I will try my best to give you my personal evaluations of them since I have ridden almost every model we had in stock of each brand.

If given the choice between Bayliner, Glastron, or Crownline I would definitely choose the Crownline. Of course they 'hit the pocket' a little harder, but you get what you pay for. You get your money's worth on all the extras, and you are essentially cruising around in a Cadillac.

My second choice would be the Glastron for several reasons. First would be it's affordability as comparable to the Bayliner. The Lifetime Warranty on the Complete Hull is a definite selling point, and the Volvo powerplants are good as gold.

My last choice would be the Bayliner. Even by today's standards they have come short in my book. It is my opinion that if Wal-Mart sold a boat .... it would be the Bayliner. That's just my opinion, but the numbers showed in return for repairs on non-engine related items. Bayliner should be considered the economy boat of boating. No offense to any present owners, but I'm just going by my observations. When you see inside a boat like most people don't then you gain the right to address these issues.

 

[narukami]

Re: Hull Questions

Speaking of Glastron...the VEC closed foam mold technology used in their hull construction is relatively new...only about 5-10 years old. I suspect it's a little premature to be discussing these VEC hulls "long-term" durability, but are there any known problems with hulls made using this technology? Anyone have any comparative data, damage reports, etc.?

 

[KCook]

Re: Hull Questions

VEC is used only in the smaller bowriders (built in high volume production runs). To the best of my knowledge, none of Glastron's deckboats use VEC.

Kelly

 

[ondarvr]

Re: Hull Questions

KC's post was very good.

In some of the articles by DP, he says he's never seen a Fiberglass boat being built and doesn't know what all of the materials are, or how they are supposed to be used.

It will be very difficult to get away from chop in a boat in the size range you're looking at and I wouldn't be concerned about it. Chop when used by itself is weak, but rarly is it used alone in anything structural like a hull these days and certainly not in the 20' to 30' range. So chop is a non issue, what you need to know more about is the resin used for the skin coat (first layer of glass) in the hull. Typically this resin is of higher quality than the rest and this type of construction is the norm, this is what reduces the chance of blistering and cracking, not a big concern, but more than the chop issue.

There is some wood in most boats, but less than in the past, they typically use better grades now and do a better job of keeping it dry, so if the boat is new, there is less chance of it rotting than what was built in the 80's and early 90's

At one time there were hundreds of fly by night boat builders out there, some knew they were building junk boats and some didn't have a clue. The ones that survived were usually doing something right and the boats they made were at least good, and in general the quality of construction has gone up over the years.


Find a good dealer in your area that handles the brands you like, then make sure you get the engine package you want and go for a test ride in each one with the family (wife and dog). Make sure you and the family are pleased with the layout and options, with less concern for the friends, as they aren't helping you pay for it. It does help to bring some people though, to see how the boat handles with the number of passengers you expect to have on board and if they all fit.

 

[luckyinkentucky]

Re: Hull Questions

From my observations, Glastron hulls are the closest thing to indestructible you can get in a glass boat. One customer ran his GS series cruiser onto the rip rap coming into the Kentucky Damn Village Marina. They had to tow his boat off of the rip rap due to the angle he hit. He called us the day before bringing it in, and we all expected a huge repair. All that was done was a few deep gouges in the gel with no major hull damage. The kicker is he was going around 35 when he swerved to miss an oncoming lady driving a party barge, and drove it hard into the rip rap. You be the judge. I know if it were my Skeeter I would have been picking the pieces off of the bottom of the lake at that speed.

 

[narukami]

Re: Hull Questions

KCook:

Thanks for the info on Glastron deckboats. I've got an email into Genmar, who I hope will supply me with a list of boats and/or boat lines that use the VEC technology. If you're interested, I'll post the reply when I get one.

Narukami

 

[narukami]

Re: Hull Questions

Ondarvr:

Thank you for your advice. My research and exploration into fiberglass boat building seemed to raise more questions than answers. You cogently expressed what my intuition suggested...that since boat building is so costly and competitive, a manufacturer must be doing something right in order to survive. All of the responders to this thread have provided great information and advice and have lessened some of my hull construction concerns. Of course, that is only part of the equation. Service (pre-sale and post-sale) both by dealer and manufacturer are another concern. But that's for a different day and a different thread. Thanks, again.

Narukami

 

[cmcpherson]

Re: Hull Questions

Can anyone say, "way over thinking!" Your research into the construction techniques is going to be tainted by your obvious predisposition to understanding which methods are quality and which are not. You need to worry a LOT more about the overall quality of the boat than how the hulls are constructed. What manufacturer is not going to give you their spin on why their construction methods are the best? And unless you have the specific experience to say that they are wrong, how are you going to know. And if you had that experience you would not be asking to begin with. It is not hard to figure out what the best boats are, look at the resale, ask owners, ask mechanics. Don't ask dealers, don't ask manufacturers. In my mind, boats are one area where it is really true that you get what you pay for. On the other hand it is a boat, so everything that can go wrong with it will go wrong with it and there is not a lot you can do about it!!!

 

[narukami]

Re: Hull Questions

cmcpherson

Perhaps I am over-thinking, but not thinking seems to be why consumers get into trouble in the first place. Manufacturers and dealers are just the starting point. The reason for all the research is simply because I do not take what is spoon fed to me by the manufacturers or dealers. As I mentioned initially, I've been away from power boating for some time and I know technologies have changed. I'm just trying to catch up. Presumably the changes are for the better, but (I know I'm overthinking here)... better for whom? The consumer or the profitability of the manufacturer.

I posted to this forum to do the very thing you suggest...to ask owners, mechanics, boaters, etc., for their knowledge and experiences, anecdotal or otherwise. As I said before, all responses are appreciated.

Narukami