I need help - any suggestion is appreciated

[bfurlano]

I have '93 Envinrude V4 140, that needs to be premixed( No oil injection). The motor was rebuilt 3 yrs ago. I am not sure if that was the lower unit or powerhead, but there was and is some salt water abuse. The boat is now in fresh water. This year I've replaced the plugs, bulb, fuel lines, and fuel filter. The work and engine was then inspected by a trusted mechanic and the boat ran well. The tank was run empty and replaced with 30 gallons of new fuel and oil, however a friend added about 8 oz of TCW 2 from a bottle at least 5-10 yrs old at a 50:1 ratio. The start after that fillup, the boat has run horrible. Since then I've added fuel stabilizer, 2 gallons oil/gas mix at a higher octane gas heavy(thinking it was too rich in oil) and water remover with not much effect, however the 30 gallons have not been run through yet. Here are the symptoms:
1. The boat doesn't start. It almost seems like the choke isn't working and you can only start the boat with A. alot of starting fluid and one time with B. luck and patience/persistence?
2. Once started it stalls every minute from 5-15mins or until you can get her up on plane..then she seems to run better once hot? Yes I can still use it, but I get tired of paddling through the marina when she stalls especially my wife and young kids on board. brutal!

I'd have to guess it was the TCW-2 but some folks say 8oz + shouldn't affect it when compared with 25-30 gallons of gas.

 

[Walker]

Re: I need help - any suggestion is appreciated

You ran the tank completely empty?? You probably sucked up a bunch of junk/crud/water. I'd start with the carbs and work my way all the way forward to the tank dip-tube and clean everything out.
The extra oil shouldn't hurt anything other than make her smoke a little more than normal.

 

[bfurlano]

Re: I need help - any suggestion is appreciated

You ran the tank completely empty?? You probably sucked up a bunch of junk/crud/water. I'd start with the carbs and work my way all the way forward to the tank dip-tube and clean everything out.
The extra oil shouldn't hurt anything other than make her smoke a little more than normal.

Commander Walker,
Can you explain to me how to service the tank dip tube? I am familiar with most of the other practices. Thanks!

 

[Silvertip]

Re: I need help - any suggestion is appreciated

You shouldn't be using starting fluid as there is no lubrication in it and it washes off what lub there is on the cylinder walls. Use a premix in a spray bottle. To clear the tank pickup and screen at the bottom of it, you can disconnect the fuel hose prior to the primer bulb and blow compressed air backward through the line. If you suspect there is a buch of crud and water in tank it should be drained and flushed.

As for starting, what's your starting procedure.

 

[bfurlano]

Re: I need help - any suggestion is appreciated

Captain/Commander,

You shouldn't be using starting fluid as there is no lubrication in it and it washes off what lub there is on the cylinder walls.

What if it says starting fluid with lubrication for cylinder walls or is that B.S.?

Use a premix in a spray bottle.
A premix of gas/oil?

To clear the tank pickup and screen at the bottom of it, you can disconnect the fuel hose prior to the primer bulb

You mean from the gas tank to the bulb and blow out into the air or from bulb to engine, or I guess both?


and blow compressed air backward through the line. If you suspect there is a buch of crud and water in tank it should be drained and flushed.

I hope there isn't crud there, but I don't know and hope not??. I put some penzoil marine fuel tank maintenance cleaner additive and some STP marine water remover last Saturday. Someone said those products are weak and I need more robust products such as "Absorb"??



As for starting, what's your starting procedure.

I squeeze the bulb until it's rock hard or tight and then I turn it over pushing the key in to supposedly activate the electronic choke. That doesn't work, so one, onetime remedy was giving it some gas from the throttle while engaged in neutral, while simultaneously depressing the choke/key. I am not sure if that makes sense but it worked a few weeks ago. Otherwise when all of that fails, I go to starting fluid.

 

[Dhadley]

Re: I need help - any suggestion is appreciated

If you push the key in only when turning it over you may or may not be activating the primer. Try the ol 4 step method --

1- Squeeze the bulb to pressurize the system.
2- Turn the key to the "On" position and push the key in to activate the primer. DO NOT engage the starter.
3- Hold the key in for an 8 count.
4- Turn the key to "Start" to engage the starter.

It should start right away if all else is OK (spark, plugs, clean carbs, primer working etc)

 

[rickdb1boat]

Re: I need help - any suggestion is appreciated

You mean from the gas tank to the bulb and blow out into the air or from bulb to engine, or I guess both?

Like this using compressed air source:

Use a premix in a spray bottle.
A premix of gas/oil?

Yes.

 

[bfurlano]

Re: I need help - any suggestion is appreciated

If you push the key in only when turning it over you may or may not be activating the primer. Try the ol 4 step method --

1- Squeeze the bulb to pressurize the system.
2- Turn the key to the "On" position and push the key in to activate the primer. DO NOT engage the starter.
3- Hold the key in for an 8 count.
4- Turn the key to "Start" to engage the starter.

It should start right away if all else is OK (spark, plugs, clean carbs, primer working etc)

When you say "squeeze the bulb"..you mean just a few times or as many times until it's hard?

 

[bfurlano]

Re: I need help - any suggestion is appreciated

I'll try this and all suggestions tonight..thank you everyone for helping.

 

[rickdb1boat]

Re: I need help - any suggestion is appreciated

Until it's firm....And when you use the starting procedure above, continue to hold the key in until it starts. You may have to bump the key(Not hold it) in a couple of times to keep it running until it smooths out....

 

[freddyray21]

Re: I need help - any suggestion is appreciated

crude and ruin or weaken a fuel pump also. sounds like it is not drawing enough fuel at low idle or like it's been said you sucked something into the carb bowl or fuel pump. Is there a strainer on the fuel pump to be cleaned?

 

[bfurlano]

Re: I need help - any suggestion is appreciated

Until it's firm....And when you use the starting procedure above, continue to hold the key in until it starts. You may have to bump the key(Not hold it) in a couple of times to keep it running until it smooths out....

I tried everything above last night. It actually started without starting fluid. I didn't try bumping the key, but I will for sure next time. However this time once running fine for mins at the dock, it wouldn't run above idle in gear and I almost got stranded. I revved it hard in neutral and it limped back to the marina at a speed just above idle. Prior to this test, it ran terrible at the dock and fine under power, just choked at idle. Not sure what to think now. It also is making a noise usually associated with overheating...but it makes it as soon as I start the engine so I know it's not overheating. When I got back to the dock, the noise still on, the water coming out of the engine was fairly hot. My past outboards were smaller Johnsons(6 and 70HP) and I don't recall the water being that hot either. Sure it could be overheating but why would that ring as soon as I start the engine? A mechanic checked it a month ago and said everything including the water pump was in good shape???

 

[ezeke]

Re: I need help - any suggestion is appreciated

Is the VRO pump still in place but being used for premix?

Your motor should have a fuel restriction switch on the VRO bracket. That switch will sound a constant alarm if there is a fuel restriction. Usually that switch is disconnected when converting to pre-mix.

I have to wonder if that stuff in the old bottle was really oil.

Have you replaced your fuel filter since this problem developed?

 

[bfurlano]

Re: I need help - any suggestion is appreciated

This is going to sound stupid, but isn't the VRO for engines with oil injection? I have to premix mine. Not sure what you mean re: the VRO. I've read about in the manual though.

The stuff in the TCW-2 container looked like oil?

I replaced the fuel filter before the oil incident but haven't cleaned it since. I guess I could try that next.

Your mention of the alarm could be true, but I SHOULD mention the wiring on the boat is trashed. The auto bilge works but other then that and the radio, everything else works when it wants including the lights, bilge, panel lights, etc. They work then don't work...what does that mean? connection?

 

[ezeke]

Re: I need help - any suggestion is appreciated

The VRO is for oil injection. However, they were often used as straight fuel pumps by those who preferred to pre-mix.

The VRO pump looks like the pump in this photo (appologies to Rick, it is his picture):http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f250/rickdb1/vro.gif

Anyway, the point was that if you have a modified VRO, and if the half-round plug that comes from the VRO is connected (#3 in the picture) disconnect it.

 

[bfurlano]

Re: I need help - any suggestion is appreciated

The VRO is for oil injection. However, they were often used as straight fuel pumps by those who preferred to pre-mix.

The VRO pump looks like the pump in this photo (appologies to Rick, it is his picture):http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f250/rickdb1/vro.gif

Anyway, the point was that if you have a modified VRO, and if the half-round plug that comes from the VRO is connected (#3 in the picture) disconnect it.

I believe the VRO was disconnected. I pre mix everything.

The engine now runs and then after 4-5 mins of stable idling it turns off and needs starting fluid to revive it??

 

[bfurlano]

Re: I need help - any suggestion is appreciated

crude and ruin or weaken a fuel pump also. sounds like it is not drawing enough fuel at low idle or like it's been said you sucked something into the carb bowl or fuel pump. Is there a strainer on the fuel pump to be cleaned?

I got it started now, but after running for about 4 mins..at least two minutes at a stable idle, the engine just dies. I check the bulb and sometimes it seems to lose some pressure but squeezing it ever so slightly doesn't keep the engine running past 5 mins. If put the engine in gear in the first two mins it also stalls. So it stalls in a long idle(4-5mins) or under load. Once stalled it requires starter fluid or a premix solution of gas/oil to get it going again.

I added new gas, about 2 gallons(no oil) on top of 25 gallons to dilute the oil/gas mixture. I also added higher octane gas, fuel stabilizer and water remover. I am going to install a RayCor water separator tonight and clean the fuel lines again, check the inline fuel fiter and clean the onboard fuel filter.

Any thoughts?

 

[Salty Sal]

Re: I need help - any suggestion is appreciated

Just my 2 cents.... as I am not a mechanic , but also had my engine rebuilt (actually a new powerhead) 3 seasons ago. Your first 10 hours of use requires a 25:1 ratio of gas to TCW-2. You are running rich to break the engine in correctly. Use of OMC Tuner or SeaFoam (after the first 50 hours) would have been a good idea to help burn off the excess carbon from running rich.
It sounds to me if you are experiencing a problem with the carbs/and or water in your fuel.
Higher octane fuel shouldn't really make a difference (you aren't running a high performance engine)- could be that the batch of gas you have has
water. A Racor filter is a good idea- though not neccessary. Getting a cheaper screw on and replacing 2 times a season is probably just as good. A lot of guys are complaining about poor engine performance since
the introduction of 10% ethenol to the gas. If you can get a separate
plastic tank and hook up to the engine using fresh gas, along with Seafoam or OMC Tuner (correct ratio) + TCW2, see if that helps.
The engine will smoke a bit more during the cleaning proccess.

 

[rickdb1boat]

Re: I need help - any suggestion is appreciated

Squeeze the bulb with vigor and keep it tight and see if it continues to run. When the fuel pump goes out or the pulse limiter is defective, you need to really pump the bulb up constantly when running. In effect, you become the fuel pump. Running for a couple of minutes and dying sounds to me like it's running out of fuel at the carbs...

 

[bfurlano]

Re: I need help - any suggestion is appreciated

Squeeze the bulb with vigor and keep it tight and see if it continues to run. When the fuel pump goes out or the pulse limiter is defective, you need to really pump the bulb up constantly when running. In effect, you become the fuel pump. Running for a couple of minutes and dying sounds to me like it's running out of fuel at the carbs...

A mechanic walking by on the dock stopped to help me briefly last night. He believes it's a spark problem. The plugs are 2 mos old and have about 10 hrs on them tops. Therefore he thinks it's the stator or the powerpack. The outboard was rebuilt with a new powerhead in '99. The original year is '93. A local mechanic friend told me stators run $350 installed on that engine and powerpacks are $150. Ugh. Anyway or does anyone know how to figure which one it is...powerpack or stator?