I/O motor Flat Tappet Cams, ZDDP ( oil argument)

[Scaaty]

Posting this here, as it applies most to I/O motors, which most are flat tappet motors.
Heres a link to one of the best articles I've seen in a long time on anti-wear additives (ZDDP) being reduced from the newer oils. And some causes and effects of the reduction. Seems that wiping the cam is the most prevalent with reduced ZDDP. Been pondering this for a week, and for my own applications, I have come up with the following for my rides (4 boats, 10 motorcycles). I'm retired and just short of broke, plan to stay that way until I die, and can't afford 8 dollars a quart for oil (at least until I get down to one ride, which will be never!).
On using Rotella, I have 2 flat tappet older motors, and I really don't like the idea of the mention of blow-by, and possible detonation (kinda defeats the purpose of trying to extend the life of the engine). So I have come up with a plan that will give me the advantage of Rotella, without the side effects of the high detergents in it. By the way, I saw Shell Rotella at WalMart in straight 30wt yesterday. First time I saw straight Rotella
On these motors, I just ordered 8 4oz bottles of GM P/N 12345501, Camshaft and Lifter Prelube. I plan to use this (one 4oz bottle per oil change) at every oil change (as per the article), as that should beef up what additives are reduced in the regular (dino) oil I use now. 40wt in the 350 boat, 10-40 in the old van. I will continue just using plan old quality 20-50 in the Harley motors, as they are roller bearing cranks and lower rods, with roller cams, so see no advantage there.
My other motors are either 2 strokes, or just not used enough to worry about, so I won't get into that any further.
I know I should just hunker down and fork over the bucks for high priced oil, but what fun is that? Love to tinker and experiment, and thats my plan for long life in the big motors (if I planned on ever selling off my toys, I wouldn't even bother with nothing but the cheapest oils, but I plan to make room in the casket for them all....too much blood, sweat, and beers in them.
Heres the link...theres 3 pages, so read them all

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/flat_tappet_cam_tech/index.html


Have at it......

 

[Scaaty]

Re: I/O motor Flat Tappet Cams, ZDDP ( oil argument)

This is the concern I have with Rotella...
For in-service engines, consider running cam and lifter prelube in the oil all the time, not just during break-in. Another alternative is to use heavy-truck diesel-oil, which is formulated for 18-wheelers and at present still has a full complement of traditional antiwear additives that have been significantly reduced in today's street-legal passenger car oils. (Though even diesel oils will start reducing zinc content in 2007 as big rigs gear up to receive catalytic converters) Comp Cams swears by Shell Rotella T diesel oil for use in high-performance street cars. It's available in both mineral-based and full-synthetic formulations with both types containing basically the same superior additive package. Rotella viscosities are generally higher than today's modern formulations, but that's not a detriment for classic musclecars. Diesel oils also add a superior detergent package that can keep the piston rings cleaner for better oil consumption control. The drawback, if any, would be on a high-mileage engine where blow-by can cause detergent to accumulate in the combustion chamber, possibly contributing to detonation.

 

[tommays]

Re: I/O motor Flat Tappet Cams, ZDDP ( oil argument)

I have used ST30 Rotella for 11 years without problem


Tommays

 

[Scaaty]

Re: I/O motor Flat Tappet Cams, ZDDP ( oil argument)

Agree on the ST30 Rotella, and would like to use it, but I had a Manifold go south in saltwater, and got a lot of saltwater in one cylinder. Caught it quick, but you know what salt does. So my concern here is the blowby issue, particularly that one cylinder. So on the detergent build up that might occur, it would only be that cylinder, and I would not be able to hear it (detonation), like I would if say the timing was off, and it was banging on all 8.....
I'm probably paranoid, but THATS nothing new! 8)

 

[Bondo]

Re: I/O motor Flat Tappet Cams, ZDDP ( oil argument)

Oh Boy,...... Yet Another Oil Thread,..............:%:'devil::/:|

I Think You should be out Riding some of those Toys,........

Instead of Wasting your Limited Remaining Time on this Wonderful Earth reading reports on What Might happen with Whatever Oil you pour into the Crankcase..............

 

[Silvertip]

Re: I/O motor Flat Tappet Cams, ZDDP ( oil argument)

It's beem awhile ago but I read an article on how the current roller lifter engines can be "over-lubricated". In other words the lubricants work so well that the rollers don't actually roll -- they slide. Obviously on a roller lifter that's not a good thing. It's apparently not a serious problem however as the web would have all sorts of articles on the problem.

 

[Buttanic]

Re: I/O motor Flat Tappet Cams, ZDDP ( oil argument)

It's beem awhile ago but I read an article on how the current roller lifter engines can be "over-lubricated". In other words the lubricants work so well that the rollers don't actually roll -- they slide. Obviously on a roller lifter that's not a good thing. It's apparently not a serious problem however as the web would have all sorts of articles on the problem.

One of those urban myths. Most all engines have used roller lifters since at least the mid 90's and some before that. Synthetic is about the most friction reducing oil you can use and if lifter rollers sliding instead of rolling was an issue I don't think Chevrolet would require the use of Mobil 1 in the Corvette to keep the warrenty valid.

 

[mkpj1]

Re: I/O motor Flat Tappet Cams, ZDDP ( oil argument)

scaaty,

You did a leak down on the salty cylinder? What are your clearances like? ticking? missing?

I've built some older hot rod motors and there definitely been a question on whether some of the cams of late have been of decent quality. Hot Rods often use stiffer springs too so the break in is crucial. Lot's of rounded lobes. i definitely sweat during break-in. Also, I suspect marine cams are not as agressive having to run ~4500 WOT all the time. different power band. I would think that the decrease in zddp is the weakest culprit in this argument.

I'm in the "if it ain't broke, don't try to fix it" Adding a bunch of different oils in "hope" of extending your motor's life. With that said, you have A LOT more experience than I

 

[Scaaty]

Re: I/O motor Flat Tappet Cams, ZDDP ( oil argument)

scaaty,

You did a leak down on the salty cylinder? What are your clearances like? ticking? missing?

I've built some older hot rod motors and there definitely been a question on whether some of the cams of late have been of decent quality. Hot Rods often use stiffer springs too so the break in is crucial. Lot's of rounded lobes. i definitely sweat during break-in. Also, I suspect marine cams are not as agressive having to run ~4500 WOT all the time. different power band. I would think that the decrease in zddp is the weakest culprit in this argument.

I'm in the "if it ain't broke, don't try to fix it" Adding a bunch of different oils in "hope" of extending your motor's life. With that said, you have A LOT more experience than I

Actually I have not down a leakdown on it...runs fine, and I oiled the living crap out of that cylinder from the get go. Plus 4 oil changes. But that was a pretty good article....pretty informative, and damn right on cam break-in. Wonder just how many builders run it in with the inner spring laying on the bench. Also interesting on the Rotella, as if they start in 2007 reducing the ZDDP, just whats the point of using it?
But there are more brains with YEARS of experience that wrote that article, and I tend to agree with all said. And I'm not mixing a bunch of oils, just adding 4 oz of Cam Prelube for the reduced ZDDP in 5 qts of oil. And on oil arguments, for some good winter reading, go visit any Harley Forum on oil. You guys here are tame compared to those "wizards"......and speaking of winter, damn near an inch of rain today in the Pacific Northwest (reason I'm not out boating OR riding), more tomorrow, and probably last until late February. Its reading time...catch up on the 2 foot high stack of Mags put off all summer.......(after I get done changing oil in all the junk I own...spent all day today just checking battery water, and almost used a whole gallon. Damn place looks like Christmas with all the red lights on from the many float chargers!)

 

[John_S]

Re: I/O motor Flat Tappet Cams, ZDDP ( oil argument)

Scaaty,

Just remember that many of us are still in the acquiring stage for our toys, and looking forward to the day, that the only thing to worry about is, "Which one will I use today?". 8) Hope your weather clears soon. If its any consulation, it's a cold snap weekend, here in NY.

 

[mkpj1]

Re: I/O motor Flat Tappet Cams, ZDDP ( oil argument)

It was a really good article, thanks. Just, I'm in the crappy quality camp. I think cam and lifter quality has been bad and tappet guys are low on the totem pole.

I'm going to look into Rotella too. I did research on oil some time ago and found research that sold me on Mobil 1. I don't remember anything about Rotella. Is it made by one of the big guys and just sold under the name Rotella?

For some reason I had Moly in my mind when you said pre lube. The thought around here a few years ago was you couldn't have enough with an after market cam. Hence your article. Pre lube should be fine. Keep us posted on what you think. I'm just thinking like you that I would be more worried about the blow by. If it's taken you this far........why f with it? Fact is, I just don't know? Good topic.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: I/O motor Flat Tappet Cams, ZDDP ( oil argument)

Buttanic -- I believe that urban myth came from one of the auto magazines and it pertained to high-performance engines -- not the daily driver. I also suggested that it must not be a serious problem as I've not seen another article like that since then.

 

[ron7000]

Re: I/O motor Flat Tappet Cams, ZDDP ( oil argument)

some good sources of info is Lubes'N'Greases magazine,
http://www.lngpublishing.com/
and machinery lubrication: http://www.machinerylubrication.com/
and noria: http://www.noria.com/

it's mostly industrial related lubrication but there are a few automotive specific articles from time to time. lubes'n'greases have been doing articles repeatedly on the progression of API service ratings and ILSAC performance standards and on phosphorus (zddp) vs catalytic converter.

L'nG just sent out the 2006 base stock guide- that's who makes what oil. They didn't list group 2 or less oils which are what most dino engine oils are, but ir was interesting to see for Group 3, PAO and PIO oils (the synthetics basically) it's just Chevron, Exxon-Mobil, and Shell. There's 18 total listed but all foreign- asia & europe. So you can bet any oil you buy probably has base oil supplied from these guys. Rotella is the brand name for Shell oil by the way.

also bobistheoilguy.com you can see oil analysis numbers and see the actuall difference in additive levels among oils.

In addition to the GM engine oil supplement, there's also a Valvoline oil supplement, I think it went by synpower something. It also is just a dose of ZDDP, as shown via analysis at boboilguy site. I remember reading but don't remember the percent numbers where API SL formulated oils were the start of the reduction of phosphorus (zddp) to help with catalytic converter life and emissions and a lot of opinions were that is was not a drastic reduction so everyone wasn't up in arms like they are with SM. However there's more to oil than zddp. A lot of boron based additives not to mention moly take the place of zddp so it's not the end of the world, but I have been reading more and more articles describing break-in procedures over the past year using 15w-40 diesel oils because of their higher antiwear/zddp additives- chevy hiperm, gmhtp.
It will be interesting to see what the API mandates for diesel oils in the next 3 years and how current engines spec'd for CD/CH/CI oils live on the new oils. With the max sulfur content raising diesel prices, it sure isn't cost effective to buy a light duty diesel truck or car.

 

[Scaaty]

Re: I/O motor Flat Tappet Cams, ZDDP ( oil argument)

Theres some interesting stuff there Ron7000.....haven't EVER had a oil related problem myself, but it damn sure don't hurt to keep up with whats changing. Agreed on the Boron and Moly. I have a pint of powdered MolyKote in my shop, and its great on way too many things.

Ironic that as I was crusing craigslist today, I found the following ...so we can't say it can't happen...!

Mechanics Dream - 31' Sea Ray - $15999

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reply to: sale-230376848@craigslist.org
Date: 2006-11-04, 11:11PM PST


Twin 454's, port engine has flat cam lobe, verified by mechanic.

SeaRay Vanguard SRV310, Express Cruiser, 12' beam
Full galley and head
Sleeps six
Usual electronics

Email for full survey (2001 valued at $35,500) and more pictures.

 

[ron7000]

Re: I/O motor Flat Tappet Cams, ZDDP ( oil argument)

fwiw I have the article on my desk,
the phosphorus limit, basically the zddp limit, was capped at 0.12% in 1995 under ILSAC GF-1 specification. I don't know the exact relationship between API S ratings to the GF ratings but SF and SJ come to mind. The GF-4 rating in 2004 capped phosphorus at 0.08% (800 ppm vs the 1200 ppm norm) but a min. of 0.06% to assure engine protection. I think that's API SL or SM. The GF-5 spec which is expected in 2009 will no doubt have lower limits on P. The diesel oil side of things will have a cap on P of 0.12% under the CJ-4 rating which was just approved, 10/26/06 and will be on shelves come 2007. So if you're worried about antiwear levels, zddp anyway, in auto engine oils it looks like you'll be safe with CI/CJ oils for the time being. That's of course your problem is caused by lower antiwear levels, and not something more common like lower viscosity/higher volatilty or too long a service time between oil changes. What'll hurt a boat engine most is running rich and not catching fuel dilution. It lowers the viscosity and depletes the additives in the oil. Leave it in for a season and wait to change it till the start of next season is a great way of shortening engine life. No oil will prevent that, and with the lower add's happening in newer oils expect these type of problems to be accelerated.

 

[Scaaty]

Re: I/O motor Flat Tappet Cams, ZDDP ( oil argument)

Actually now I thinking just to stock up on 30wt Rotella for the my I/O boat. Re-power 350 in 96, very little hours (not used 98 to 2002). Not really worried about any blow-by build up issues, as I can see clean piston tops in all. I run a tank full of Techron Concentrate though all my motors occasionally anyway. I have no problem with fuel dilution, and the oil comes out end of season religiously! I'm still in the camp of cheaper oil changed often, than high priced stuff at double intervals.
Might start using Rotella 15-40 in the old Harley's motors I own, instead of GTX 20-50 I've been using for decades (I'll have to see what the oil pressure does) as they are also used little, and need the Diesel oil additives more. All the people I know with classic old stuff not run much use Diesel oil too. Just trying to stay ahead of the game, and when I shrivel up and die, some lucky son of a gun will inherit some well preserved old iron.