Idle Problems

Brandma

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Oct 3, 2004
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15
Guys,
I need help troubleshooting a 1988 Mercruiser 350 V8 - 260 HP motor with a Rochester 4 barrel Carburetor. The engine cracked a head / blew a head gasket / burnt the valves between two cylinders. An experienced engine rebuilder repaired/replaced the heads. Once repaired he could not get the original rochester carburetor to idle properly at the correct idle speed of around 600-700 rpm. This problem existed before the engine was redone and may have caused the trouble according to the rebuiilder due to the engine running too lean. Before the engine failure it always shut off at "no wake speed" (less than 800 RPM) I was able to get around it before the engine failure by bumping the idle speed up to about 800-900 RPM. The situation also improved somewhat after tearing the carb down and rebuilding it.

I had an older Edelbrock Rochester (4903) off of a 454 automotive engine so we decided to try this one. It is a larger CFM carburetor (795 cfm) He set the idle RPM at 600-700 RPM and was able to keep it running in the shop. On the water though it was the same problem. The engine would run good at higher throttle ranges but would shut off after a minute or so at low rpm ranges.

We started to suspect an air vent issue on the fuel tank or a fuel pump issue. Vent is OK but when we pulled the output hose off the pump we found the pump was not outputting much fuel. I put a new mechanical fuel pump on. Same problem. After the engine shuts off it will easily start right away again with no throttle, but it will shut off in a minute or two.

On the water the carb acted like it has a vacumn issue sometimes because if I was in gear at say at say 1500 RPM it will run for a minute there and drop off to say 700 RPM. Sometimes it would catch back up and go back to 1500 RPM. It would always drop off again and then eventually die off. It starts again with no gas being applied, but runs for a minute and shuts down.

I decided to buy a vacumn gauge and test vacumn. At low RPM 600-1000 I cannot even get a reading, at higher RPM (1500 +) I get a steady 15 on the gauge. The gauge was connected to the lowest port on the LH front side of the edelbrock carb (Ported vacumn port?) I also monitored the timing with a timing light. Timing stays steady but drops off at the moment the engine starts to die.

I guess my next steps are to check fuel pressure and volume output to be sure everything is OK there. I would guess there is a strainer in the bottom of inlet tube in this 40 gallon (under the floor board) tank but I am not sure. I am also starting to suspect something in the Thunderbolt ignition system. Plugs, dist. cap. ignition module are all new from a year ago. Any ideas?
 

Haut Medoc

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Jun 29, 2004
Messages
10,645
Re: Idle Problems

I doubt very much that it is an ignition problem.....
You need to put the marine carb back on, an auto one is illegal & dangerous, due to the risk of fire & explosion......
Don S. has a post on how to test your boats fuel system.....
You might try hooking up a portable six gallon tank between the tank & fuel/water separater & see if it clears up the symptom....
That would localize the problem....
I'll see if I can find his post......:)
http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=167561&highlight=testing+your+boats+fuel+system
 

Brandma

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Oct 3, 2004
Messages
15
Re: Idle Problems

Thanks for the advice, I definitely will be putting the original carb back on. I'll try the spare fuel tank and see where it takes me.
 

Brandma

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Oct 3, 2004
Messages
15
Re: Idle Problems

No luck running the engine off of a seperate fuel tank. Same problem - engine dies off after a minute or two. I'll keep searching for an answer.
 

bjcsc

Lieutenant Commander
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Jun 1, 2006
Messages
1,805
Re: Idle Problems

I had a similar problem, and although our systems are totally different, maybe it's something you can explore. I had the exact same symptoms, and the answer, in my case, turned out to be my alternator. My fuel pump, electric, is supplied with power initially by the cranking circuit, and then by some other circuit from the alternator. This, as was explained to me, is a safety feature that cuts the fuel if the engine stops running. When that circuit failed, I could start the engine, and it would run until the fuel supplied by cranking was gone. Maybe you have a similar "safety", maybe not...
 

Bondo

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71,097
Re: Idle Problems

It sounds to Me, that you have 2 Junk Carbs............
 

Haut Medoc

Supreme Mariner
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Jun 29, 2004
Messages
10,645
Re: Idle Problems


If it failed the tank test, I am inclined to agree with Bondo & suggest that you rebuild the carb.....
However, you should still perform the tests that are outlined in the chart Don has provided.......
I would think that you have a mechanical fuel pump on an '88, so what Bcjsc said would not apply to you.......:)
 

Don S

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
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Aug 31, 2004
Messages
62,321
Re: Idle Problems

At low RPM 600-1000 I cannot even get a reading, at higher RPM (1500 +) I get a steady 15 on the gauge.

If you don't have any vacuum at idle, it won't idle. Since this problem existed prior to the heads being repaired, I would be wondering about the intake manifold being warped or cracked causing the low vacuum.
I'm sure there is a pipe plug on the intake just behind the carb, hook your vacuum gauge there for testing.
 

Brandma

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Oct 3, 2004
Messages
15
Re: Idle Problems

Thanks for all the help. I did some more testing. I will confirm the vacuum numbers again off of the manifold. I tried several ports at the bottom of this edelbrock and I think the gauge is just a cheap unit and is not recording at low RPMS's. Until I get to around 1500 RPM it just will not show any vacuum.

The alternator is an interesting idea because that did have to be replaced when I bought the boat. I think a used one was put on at the time. And as I said this idle issue has been a problem since day one.

Another person told me about an anti-siphon valve on the output of the fuel tank where the hose connects. I don't believe my boat has one though and I eliminated the possiblity by hooking up a different fuel line to seperate container of fuel.

I double checked timning and it stays a steady 6 degrees BBDC when idiling until the engine just dies. There is no slow dropoff in RPM like it is slowly loosing fuel or timing - it shuts down in a second or two. Starts right back up though with a turn of the key switch. Runs for a minute and just dies again. If I catch the drop off quick enough and hit the gas it stays running fine until I pull back the throttle back to 1500 RPM range or less, then runs for a minute and dies again.

This is a mechanical style fuel pump, and it was just replaced as well. I feel better at least now that I have some directions to go. Thanks for the help. I'll let you know how it goes.
 

Brandma

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Oct 3, 2004
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Re: Idle Problems

Oops, I forgot your advice that since it is a mechanical fuel pump the alternator should not affect this condition. Darn - thought you had something there. I will perform all the other tests as outlined.
 

bjcsc

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Re: Idle Problems

My point was not that you would have the same setup regarding the fuel pump, I caught the fact you have a manual pump in your initial post, but that you may have an alternator circuit causing your problems. You could clip a volt meter inline somewhere, and see what your voltage is doing when your problem occurs. If you have good voltage from your alternator throughout the occurrence of your problem, then I would be inclined to agree with bond-o in that your carbs are no good. However, you you said one was rebuilt and the use of either results in the same problem... In my experience, if it's starving for fuel, it shuts down when the primary bowl is empty. It would then not immediately restart until a bit of cranking, but may with a few accel pump squirts (but you said will start with no throttle). If you have a primary problem (blockage, trash,etc), you very well may get it to run at higher RPM's as your secondaries could be open. I'm still thinking it's electrical. I'll be interested to see what you find out...
 

Brandma

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Oct 3, 2004
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Re: Idle Problems

Thanks for the addtional info. I personally do not believe it is vacuun leak or a fuel starvation issue. I picked up a new water/filter seperator which I just replaced last year anyways to positively rule that out. That is all that is left going into the carb. Other than a worn lobe on the crank which is driving the mechanical pump which you would think would be a problem at all RPM ranges that is it. I also checked the push rod coming off the lobe and it looked fine with no wear points noticed.

Although I have not done the load fuel pressure checks as was suggested yet, I have done everything else literally. I ran the engine off a spare tank, put in a new mechanical fuel pump, checked / cleaned the small carb filter, tried two seperate carb's which both run fine at higher RPM's. I have checked for vacuum leaks all around the base of the carb / manifold with nothing being found.

I suppose for just a short time, since I have a two battery setup anyways - just disconnect the alternator and see if it still shuts off. I'll monitor the voltage with it connected first and see what the output is & look for changes.

The engine rebuilder that did this rebuild work and adjusted the carb is an experienced auto and boat race engine builder who knows rochester, holley's... and knows what he is doing. He didn't have the time a week ago to check everything but it has him stumped a bit right now as well. He is going to take a look at it with me towards the end of this week also. I'll keep you posted.
 

bjcsc

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Messages
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Re: Idle Problems

I suppose for just a short time, since I have a two battery setup anyways - just disconnect the alternator and see if it still shuts off.

Don't do this...very bad...hope you're still here...
 

bjcsc

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Re: Idle Problems

It can damage the internals, esp. if it has an internal regulator. You could disconnect the alternator and then see if it will start and run on the batteries...
 

Brandma

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Oct 3, 2004
Messages
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Re: Idle Problems

Thanks - I did check the voltage at the alternator - it is steady and after looking at the schematics I don't see any safty shutoff circuit. What I did find is this. I took the steel line running from the output of the mechanical pump to the carb and disconnected it at the carb. I turned the line so I could pump some into a container. If youi recall I did this with the old mechanical pump and had seen it was hardly putting any fuel. That is why I replaced it. Well low and behold this one isn't either. I primmed the carburetor with some fuel and started the engine.
I got a quick little burst of fuel right at startup into the container, and then nothing. That is until the engine ran out of fuel in the carb. When the engine died off it spit another small amount into the container. Unbelievable!
So where does that leave me? I guess it is telling me the lobe is worn on the camshaft, or perhaps this the push rod length is wrong, or it has the wrong camshaft in the engine. The engine rebulder knew it had been worked on before as it did not have marine gaskets and so forth.
As I mentioned this has been a problem since I bought this boat 3 years ago. I think this is what eventually caused the heads to burn valves, gasket burnt through to an adjacent cylinders... about a month ago. Interesting story, last year I had a really strange problem as well that I wonder now if it was related to running lean as well. I actually had a spark plug that inside came apart and blew out of the block. The part that was screwed into the block was still there, but the porcelain part blew out and I found it in the spark plug wire. I was running full speed at the time and I thought for sure it was a rod knocking. Turns out a year later this cylinder was one of the two that the head gasket burnt through to the other cyclinder. You woudn't with this fuel pump issue that it would run at higher speeds then as well but it does. Apparently there is enough RPM's / action on that lever that it gets enough fuel to run. I am not sure what to do now, but I am thinking perhaps just converting it to an electric fuel pump system. Anybody know where to get a conversion kit. I suppose I could put a mag base indicator on the push rod, hand rotate the enginer over and see that the movement is but I have no spec's in my mercruiser book as to what it should be. Any suggestions?
 

bjcsc

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Re: Idle Problems

Hey, that's good news! (sort of anyway) I can't imagine it's the cam lobe, provided it's the right cam. I would suspect the pump. My CJ-7 has over 200,000 miles on it and it still pumps great. Is there way to verify the part number of the pump that you have vs. should have?
 

Speakrdude1

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Jul 9, 2007
Messages
10
Re: Idle Problems

Just curious. Does the problem happen when hot, cold, always? If it only happens after its hot, Feel the coil. Is it reallll hot? If it is, thats your problem.

I had that happen once before after I replaced the coil with a brand yellow Excell. Would run prety good, then when I stopped for a bit, It would start idle, then die, no start again for a while. Changed back to old, black coil, runs like a new one.

Just a thought,

Jim
 

Brandma

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Joined
Oct 3, 2004
Messages
15
Re: Idle Problems

Guys,
Guys,
Thanks for helping out. I am not sure what to do other than change to an electric fuel pump setup. I am going to test it one more time with a line running directly into a can of gas and the output of the fuel pump running into a container. I already eliminated my boats fuel tank by running a line from the water separator input to a spare tank and still had the problem.
I put a new water separator filter in as well with no luck.

So I am near certain if I run a line direct from the input of the mechanical pump into a spare tank of gas and run the output into a container it is going to do the same thing which is just a small shot of gas coming out of the pump at startup of the engine, and a small shot coming out when the carb runs out of fuel and the engine dies off. A Jegs guy does not believe the boat would run at WOT on the water if it was a cam lobe problem, but what else can it be?
I will confirm I have the right pump on it, but I think it is because all the steel lines look original and are specifically made/bent for the output & input line locations. Other pumps I seen at a NAPA store book had different locations for the lines.
 

bjcsc

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Re: Idle Problems

Sounds like a good plan. I wonder if you set up a vented tank to gravity feed the carb if you could bypass the pump altogether?

And don't forget - some new parts, even fuel pumps, can be junk right out of the box. Mass production has its limitations, too...
 
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