Is an ancient Johnson 85 V4 worth the effort?

[Silly Seville]

Hi Guys!

I picked up a '69 Johnson 85 recently. Unfortunately no history on it, and no way to test it. I bought it with the intention of possibly putting it on an antique boat. I understand that getting someone to work on old outboards is a hassle. I don't understand why, considering they are a much simpler design compared to modern computerized fuel injected beasts...but I'm willing to learn how to work on it myself...that is, if it's worth doing so.

Here is what I've done so far. Built a stand for it and hooked up a battery. Pulled the plugs. I jumped the starter solenoid and it turns over, but slowly as if it were dragging really hard. I was using a new 1000 amp battery from my truck, so I know voltage or current wasn't an issue. The lower gear lube came out without any sign of water and was a translucent golden honey color. I captured it in a clear glass and didn't see any signs of metal present.

I read on this site that these engines are always in gear when not running? Does that mean that when I was trying to start it, it was trying to turn the gears? I certainly didn't notice the prop spinning. The control box has three push buttons on it. F N R. Apparently, there needs to be electricity running to the box to make it tell the engine to shift, so maybe that's why it wouldn't turn over with any real speed. Can someone shed some light on this situation as I've described thus far? Can I run battery voltage to the control box safely to see if it will activate the shift mechanism and put it in neutral? Am I fooling myself thinking that this can't be anymore complicated than an I/O powertrain?

 

[durban]

Re: Is an ancient Johnson 85 V4 worth the effort?

this wot ive done to a 1970 60hp
http://forums.iboats.com/johnson-ev...base-sensor-few-other-conversions-527612.html

 

[durban]

Re: Is an ancient Johnson 85 V4 worth the effort?

another oldie out of this world
http://forums.iboats.com/johnson-evinrude-outboards/durbans-johnsonator-outboard-motors-590435.html

 

[eavega]

Re: Is an ancient Johnson 85 V4 worth the effort?

Credit to J. Reeves for the explanation of the hydroelectric shift (your motor has this).

The motor will default to forward gear with no power to the shift solenoids. If you are not getting the prop to spin when the motor is started, you may have a problem in the lower unit.

Good luck

Hydro Electric Shift)
(J. Reeves)

The shifting setup of the lower unit is what's called a "Hydro Electric Shift", which is quite complex consisting of voltage being applied to solenoids in the lower unit which in turn change oil passages via a oil pump that supplies various pressure on a spring loaded shifter dog. The wires leading to the lower unit (at the powerhead) are "Green" and "Blue". The engine must be running or cranking over in order to shift out of forward gear.

You CAN NOT use HI VIS lube in that lower unit. You MUST USE what OMC calls "Premium Blend" lube, commonly called "Type C". (A thinner lube)

In neutral, you need 12v to the "Green" wire.
In reverse, you need 12v to both wires, the "Green" one and the "Blue" one.
In forward, there should be no voltage to either wire. (The spring loaded shifter dog forces the unit into forward gear)

To check the lower unit for proper shifting to make sure you have no trouble there, remove the spark plugs to avoid problems and to allow a higher cranking speed.

This next step eliminates the actual shift switch in case problems may exist there.... Disconnect the blue & green wires at the knife connectors (the rubber insulated boots) leading to the lower unit at the powerhead, then using jumpers, take voltage direct from the starter solenoid to apply voltage to the "Green" wire for neutral, then both wires 'Green" & "Blue" for reverse (Remember the engine must be cranking over in order to shift).
With no voltage applied, the unit should be in forward. No need for a ground jumper... the lower unit's already grounded. You may crank the engine with the key switch or by energizing the starter solenoid with a jumper wire.

 

[F_R]

Re: Is an ancient Johnson 85 V4 worth the effort?

Silly S, it boils down to do you want an old motor with old technology, or do you want a newer one with newer technology. That motor was state of the art when it was built, and worked very well. Some things like the ignition system have been vastly improved in later years, but the old one can still work. You just have to know what you are doing. Most of those amplifier problems are due to negligence or lack of maintenance. Or ignorance. Trying to start it without proper electrical connections is one of the above.

It does have points, but they don't give trouble other than needing periodic service. They never burn up like the old magneto/battery systems. The distributor is lousy design, but will work.

There is nothing wrong with Hydro-Electric shift, again except lack of maintenance and ignorance. And the fact that some parts are obsolete and/or outrageously expensive.

If the starter is cranking fast enough, that is fast enough to move the shift clutch into neutral. It should actually should shift in one revolution or less.

Again, don't Gerry rig the electricals. Or be prepared to spend some $$$

Or buy a newer motor.

 

[boobie]

Re: Is an ancient Johnson 85 V4 worth the effort?

IMHO, get a newer motor where parts are easy to come by. That was a good motor in its day 'cause I worked on a lot of them and you did have problems but parts were reasonably priced and easy to find.

 

[Silly Seville]

Re: Is an ancient Johnson 85 V4 worth the effort?

F_R...thank you. I am wrenching on it right now. I disconnected the throttle cable and centered the arm manually. Now it is pointing to the spot that reads "Starting Position". I yanked the plugs again and squirted ATF into the holes. Put 12 volts directly to the starter again and now it spins crazy fast and smooth. The prop was spinning too, although not very fast. I have what I believe is a newer Pulse Pack on this engine. I mean, it looks brand new and the wires leaving it are certainly newer than those on the engine. They are also butt spliced not soldered or heat shrunk like I would expect of the original wiring. I've got pictures coming.

Here's a follow up question. Must I have the entire electrical harness, i.e. the ignition switch and shifter box hooked up to the engine for it to start and continue running?

 

[Silly Seville]

Re: Is an ancient Johnson 85 V4 worth the effort?

I know I'm practically begging for a beating for asking this question, but please bear in mind I've never owned an outboard before...Do I HAVE to have a special gas tank to run the engine, or can I just run a length of gas line hose into my 1 gallon tank of chainsaw pre-mix? I know that outboards are supposed to have a primer bulb. Does that mean it will not suck up fuel from a tank on its own? What is the alternative to buying a tank. I wish one came with the engine. They are freaking expensive for a simple piece of molded plastic! I have several aluminum tanks laying around here from other boat projects. Any reason why I couldn't plumb one of those to work?

 

[sandhopper2]

Re: Is an ancient Johnson 85 V4 worth the effort?

Good luck with this Old Rude , I have the same motor and have been trying to get it to run
So I will be watching this post to see yor progress
I think all you need is the primer thing to get gas started from any tank
Larry

 

[Bosunsmate]

Re: Is an ancient Johnson 85 V4 worth the effort?

Here's a follow up question. Must I have the entire electrical harness, i.e. the ignition switch and shifter box hooked up to the engine for it to start and continue running?

No, you just need to jump the solenoid to start it and find a way to shut it down. opening the fuel solenoid should do it or you can put a wire into the kill circuit at the plug and ground that to shut it down

 

[Bosunsmate]

Re: Is an ancient Johnson 85 V4 worth the effort?

You can use your chainsaw tank so long as it has a breather hole so you dont get a vacuum collapsing it. Yes you will need a primer bulb.

Looking at that photo you dont have a valve type solenoid but you can use that choke mechanism to shut it down

 

[F_R]

Re: Is an ancient Johnson 85 V4 worth the effort?

You must have the alternator securely connected to the battery. Or disable the alternator. Failure to do so invites a blown ignition system or alternator----or both.

You must have the (both) battery cables securely connected. Failure to do so.....see #1

You must have a secure connection between the battery + and amplifier input to turn it on.

You must have the shift connections if you expect it to shift.

As I mentioned earlier, don't be trying to cut corners in an effort to get it running.

 

[Silly Seville]

Re: Is an ancient Johnson 85 V4 worth the effort?

Thanks everyone for your insight. I have spent many hours looking at a schematic and making my own "dash panel" for the ignition system. I am so glad I dug into the wiring because the previous owner(s) were trying to accomplish something that I am utterly astonished by. If I had not taken all of the electrical tape off the engine-side wiring harness, and the plastic cover that hides the terminal strip...I would have never got it running. Someone had wired a toggle switch into the power supply that normally feeds the amplifier. They defeated the thermo switch, auto choke and temp overheat indicator light in the process. They tapped into a source of continuous 12v power at the terminal strip and spliced the amplifier power wire there. So the purple wire coming from the ignition to power the amplifier wasn't even hooked up. What a night! Four hours to unsort this mess. I'm not even going to wrap all that engine wiring harness back up with electrical tape. I'm going to stuff it in one of those handy-dandy plastic split wire looms. I sure hope this engine runs after all of this circuit chasing business.

 

[Silly Seville]

Re: Is an ancient Johnson 85 V4 worth the effort?

You must have the alternator securely connected to the battery. Or disable the alternator. Failure to do so invites a blown ignition system or alternator----or both.

You must have the (both) battery cables securely connected. Failure to do so.....see #1

You must have a secure connection between the battery + and amplifier input to turn it on.

You must have the shift connections if you expect it to shift.

As I mentioned earlier, don't be trying to cut corners in an effort to get it running.

F_R...when you say alternator, are you talking about the thing I call a stator? Or the distributor? The thing under the flywheel that has the spark plug wires coming out of it? How would I "connect it to the battery"?

My battery cables are secured to their factory positions...negative on the block, and positive at the top of the starter solenoid.

I am now running through the factory wiring harness both at the helm and engine side. The power supply going to the amplifier is controlled via the "run" position of the ignition switch. I also checked for continuity at the electric shift module, and the buttons behave as expected. The one thing I found troubling was getting only 9 volts of juice at the shift button terminals. Maybe the voltage will come up to normal when the engine is providing its own power?

 

[F_R]

Re: Is an ancient Johnson 85 V4 worth the effort?

Alternator, stator, rectifier, call it whatever you want. It is connected to the battery at the starter solenoid. If connections are not clean and secure, voltage goes way off the scale (spikes).

 

[Silly Seville]

Re: Is an ancient Johnson 85 V4 worth the effort?

UPDATE: I have successfully fired the engine! :happy: Since I didn't have the proper gas tank and fuel line/primer bulb available, I just put some 50:1 in a Windex bottle and squirted it into the carbs. I couldn't believe it actually ran...albeit for only 3 seconds at a time until it would starve for fuel and quit. Man, did it make an enormous cloud of smoke in my garage! It had so much ATF in those cylinders, I'm shocked it could burn it. Anyway, I have to get the proper fuel components now if I'm going to run it for any length of time. I want to run it in a horse trough in my garage where it's warm. Does the telltale on this engine shoot like a geyser at idle, or is it a calm enough stream I could catch it in another container so as to avoid making a mess on the garage floor. I can't take it outside since it is well below freezing, and we already have snow on the ground.

Thanks again everyone!

 

[F_R]

Re: Is an ancient Johnson 85 V4 worth the effort?

The tell tale is the two finger-size blow holes on the backside of the midsection. Water sprays/blows out there by the exhaust relief. I suppose you could rig up some sort of a shield to deflect it back down to the tank.

 

[Silly Seville]

Re: Is an ancient Johnson 85 V4 worth the effort?

Thanks F_R! Sounds like it will make a mess regardless. Since I ran the engine without water for a total of maybe 10 seconds...can I assume that the impeller is toast. It may be anyway since there is no telling how long the engine sat before I got it.

I have another more serious question. Should I be worried about the oil that is coming out of the prop housing? It looks like ATF, which would make sense since that is what I was squirting into the cylinders to soak them before I fired it up. But it's dribbling out now that I have the engine stood up straight. Is that normal for an outboard. I know it's a HUGE no-no for sterndrives to leak anything but water from the propshaft (torpedo) housing!

 

[SigSaurP229]

Re: Is an ancient Johnson 85 V4 worth the effort?

Yes you can assume the impeller is toast, with an engine that has been frankenmotored and sat up for lord know how long, the impeller was toast anyways.

It is possible that the atf you put in the cylinders has leaked down through the exhaust housing out through the exhaust discharge.

Pictures would really help.

You don't actually have a hydroelectric shift like others are saying I believe you have a straight electric shift motor. Entirely different in the lower unit and use different systems of engaging/disengaging the gears. Pretty sure it is as it is a three wire shift box though if you do have a hydroelectric motor that is a straight electric shift box and it will not work for that engine.

 

[F_R]

Re: Is an ancient Johnson 85 V4 worth the effort?

Yes you can assume the impeller is toast, with an engine that has been frankenmotored and sat up for lord know how long, the impeller was toast anyways.

It is possible that the atf you put in the cylinders has leaked down through the exhaust housing out through the exhaust discharge.

Pictures would really help.

You don't actually have a hydroelectric shift like others are saying I believe you have a straight electric shift motor. Entirely different in the lower unit and use different systems of engaging/disengaging the gears. Pretty sure it is as it is a three wire shift box though if you do have a hydroelectric motor that is a straight electric shift box and it will not work for that engine.

Whoa!! Did I screw up? Just to make sure, I looked it up. Nope, I wuz right, a 1969 85hp Johnson certainly IS Hydroelectric shift!!! (Now assuming the OP is correct when he said it is a 1969). The wiring diagram I posted is correct for 1969. However, it is true that Electramatic and Hydroelectric controls are different. The shift switch is different and not interchangeable. across the two systems.

And yes, that ATF you dumped into the cylinders would have run out the exhaust (thru the prop).

EDIT: Yep, I see the monkey nutz on the electrical panel picture. They are used on Hydroelectric motors.