Is the Japanese government stupid, or do they think the rest of the world is?

Tinkerer · Apr 22, 2005

The demonstrations in China sparked by the latest Japanese text ignoring Japan's apalling conduct in WWII and earlier in China again raises the question of why Japanese officialdom won't acknowledge these facts and tell their own people the truth. As individuals I've always found the Japanese to be delightful people but at the government level they still have a long way to go if they're still unable to accept books which are truthful about their own history. I'm not prepared to treat Japan as a reliable nation or partner in any sense as long as it continues this ridiculous practice of trying to bury its past and deceive its people about their recent history. In particular, I think it's insanity to allow Japan a seat on the UN Security Council and for the US and other countries to encourage Japan to take a greater part in international military activities when the national leadership engages in such bizarre behaviour which makes it impossible to treat them as honest and trustworthy.

dogsdad · Apr 22, 2005

Re: Is the Japanese government stupid, or do they think the rest of the world is

Re: Is the Japanese government stupid, or do they think the rest of the world is

I can understand why the world would be wary of Japan. I also agree that the Chinese people have good reason to be very wary of Japan. Wariness of Japan in Australia is certainly very understandable also. BUT...anytime I see something like this happening, I question whether the Chinese government is orchestrating all the hoopla. In this case, I wonder if they are not thinking they could stir up enough favorable sentiment to justify attacking Japan. I think I trust Japan far more than Communist China. Japan is not the same country that it was before MacArthur reformed it, though Japanese culture will likely always carry a few certain characteristics---such as a very concrete reluctance to admit fault. It will be interesting indeed to watch all this play out. -dd-

Boomyal · Apr 22, 2005

Re: Is the Japanese government stupid, or do they think the rest of the world is

Re: Is the Japanese government stupid, or do they think the rest of the world is

It must be the inscrutable Oriental mind that is rearing it's head. Seriously I just recently read that one of the reasons that the Japanese don't readily own up to the atrocities they committed is due to the way McArthur insisted that they be treated at the end of the war. He did not hold their Emperor responsible and he would not allow occupation soldiers make any reference to the various issues. He wanted the US to keep their thumb on them but to not hurt their esteem. Boy, where have we heard that before?

NYMINUTE · Apr 22, 2005

Re: Is the Japanese government stupid, or do they think the rest of the world is

Re: Is the Japanese government stupid, or do they think the rest of the world is

Stupid is the winner

rodbolt · Apr 22, 2005

Re: Is the Japanese government stupid, or do they think the rest of the world is

Re: Is the Japanese government stupid, or do they think the rest of the world is

why you need to know? or at least that is the standard answer when you ask a suzuki or yamaha engineer a question. more of a concern is China just passed a law making cesscion against the law. paves the way for a legal military takeover of Tiawan. maybe we can get into a real war then. but most likly its the same reasons we dont teach history here much, especially if its unpopular history or brings to light any US misdeeds. no nation likes to admit past faults. cant fault them for that.

DJ · Apr 22, 2005

Re: Is the Japanese government stupid, or do they think the rest of the world is

Re: Is the Japanese government stupid, or do they think the rest of the world is

One would think that we, the US, was the big bad bully during WWII. At least President Clinton convinced us so by apologizing to Japan. We're the idiots. Just look around you, Americans are in love with Japan. Even considring the Bataan Death March. We never got an apology.

rodbolt · Apr 23, 2005

Re: Is the Japanese government stupid, or do they think the rest of the world is

Re: Is the Japanese government stupid, or do they think the rest of the world is

DJ ever look into the history leading up to our declaration of war on Japan in 1941 and the German declaration of war on the US in 1942. Roosevelt did all but poop down Tojo's windpipe to provoke it. roosevelt also tried for several years to declare war on germany but could not pull it off. while I see his insight into why we had to assist in the fight the methods employed created more casualties and were outright lies and propaganda in other cases. had Hitler not declared war on the US, britain would have fallen in may of 43. they could not have sustained themselves alone. Tojo never had a chance, he surrounded himself with only those people that believed in the same propaganda and fired all those who disagreed with the assesment, similar to a certaian political body today. Yamamoto was almost removed and tried for Treason when he disagreed on the plan to attack the US. he flat told the emporor and the generals that a war with the US was unwinnable.Yamamoto had travled in the US extensivly and was educated in the US and knew the vast reserves of materiels and manpower we had that Japan did not. by 41 Japan was out of oil,steel,rubber lead and the nessasry chemicals to wage war. when Roosevelt imposed the oil,steel and food sales to Japan they had to do someting. was a foolish plan but one they hoped would buy them time to stake a claim in the oil fields of asia and south china. had the aircraft carriers been at pearl on dec7th 1941 the war in the south pacific would have been vastly different. though the outcome most likly would have remained the same. no shame in apologizing to Japan. as long as they remember even though we are sorry we had to do the nuke trick it actually saved hundreds of thousands of lives on both sides. what I do find funny is even after germany declared war on the US the current presidents grandfather continured trading with the Nazi party, he later had some assest siezed but no convictions. http://www.clamormagazine.org/issues/14/feature3.shtml just seems a tad incongrous and I guess it really does not matter.

Tinkerer · Apr 23, 2005

Re: Is the Japanese government stupid, or do they think the rest of the world is

Re: Is the Japanese government stupid, or do they think the rest of the world is

Originally posted by rodbolt: DJ ever look into the history leading up to our declaration of war on Japan in 1941 and the German declaration of war on the US in 1942. Roosevelt did all but poop down Tojo's windpipe to provoke it. roosevelt also tried for several years to declare war on germany but could not pull it off. while I see his insight into why we had to assist in the fight the methods employed created more casualties and were outright lies and propaganda in other cases. had Hitler not declared war on the US, britain would have fallen in may of 43. they could not have sustained themselves alone. Tojo never had a chance, he surrounded himself with only those people that believed in the same propaganda and fired all those who disagreed with the assesment, similar to a certaian political body today. Yamamoto was almost removed and tried for Treason when he disagreed on the plan to attack the US. he flat told the emporor and the generals that a war with the US was unwinnable.Yamamoto had travled in the US extensivly and was educated in the US and knew the vast reserves of materiels and manpower we had that Japan did not. by 41 Japan was out of oil,steel,rubber lead and the nessasry chemicals to wage war. when Roosevelt imposed the oil,steel and food sales to Japan they had to do someting. was a foolish plan but one they hoped would buy them time to stake a claim in the oil fields of asia and south china. had the aircraft carriers been at pearl on dec7th 1941 the war in the south pacific would have been vastly different. though the outcome most likly would have remained the same. no shame in apologizing to Japan. as long as they remember even though we are sorry we had to do the nuke trick it actually saved hundreds of thousands of lives on both sides. what I do find funny is even after germany declared war on the US the current presidents grandfather continured trading with the Nazi party, he later had some assest siezed but no convictions. http://www.clamormagazine.org/issues/14/feature3.shtml just seems a tad incongrous and I guess it really does not matter.

1. Go back further to Admiral Perry forcing Japan to trade with the west in the 1850's. If the US hadn't forced a proud people to accept humiliating terms then, and the West generally hadn't exploited and humiliated them terribly over the next 80 or so years by selling them raw materials at market prices and buying their goods at depressed prices, the Pacific War would never have happened. Most people who haven't bothered to study it seem to think that Japan went to war just becase they were a bunch of militaristic barbarians intent on raping and pillaging, but the ultimate purpose of the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere was to assure Japan of the raw materials it couldn't get from the West at prices that made it economic for Japan to continue to trade with us. It's not like Japan is the only country to go to war to assure itself of raw materials to preserve its economy and serve its major corporate interests. There's much more recent examples. Japan's problem is that it lost. 2. I'm not sure about Britain falling in 1943. Hitler abandoned invasion plans after the Battle of Britain in 1940. By 1943 the Western Front was a defensive front anticipating an invasion rather than the offensive springboard for one. The Eastern Front was sucking up German resources and sapping their military capability in addition to the pounding they'd got in North Africa. Britain's problem in 1943 was more that it couldn't sustain itself properly and, on a military front, mount a successful invasion of Europe on its own. With the benefit of hindsight I think Britain was more at risk of stagnating or being in a stalemate with Germany than falling, although at the time Churchill certainly regarded it as a dark period. 3. Why pick on Dubya's grandfather? He wasn't doing anything that others weren't doing, like Kodak and pro-Hitler anti-semites like Henry Ford and old Joe Kennedy. Next thing you'll be objecting to people making profits out of war.

achris · Apr 23, 2005

Re: Is the Japanese government stupid, or do they think the rest of the world is

Re: Is the Japanese government stupid, or do they think the rest of the world is

Hey Tinkerer, It's all about money. If they acknowledge what they did, and they did some pretty terrible things, then the survivors and their families can sue for compensation. They will acknowledge it eventually, after all the survivors have passed on. Chris.........

rodbolt · Apr 23, 2005

Re: Is the Japanese government stupid, or do they think the rest of the world is

Re: Is the Japanese government stupid, or do they think the rest of the world is

old joe did make a killing trading with the Nazi's but he made his first fortune with rum. kodack was never convicted either but none went on to be a senator.none will acknowledge anything and in 1980 the money was safley tucked away in a trust. cant complain about war profits, its saved our economy more than once. while I agree with the general assertion that by 43 hitler had abandoned invasion plans by late 41 he had not. it took the world by suprise and to the delight of churchill when he declared war on the US in dec 41. why the world will never know. at least no reason I could ever discern. seems that with the german-russian non agression pact he had access to all the russian war materiels he needed yet attacked russia. but by late 41 he was thinking that russia was going to fall soon so maybe he got overconfident or believed his own propaganda machine. in any case had the german/italian declaration not been made Roosevelt would only have had the autority to continue the lend lease act and that may have finnished britain off. by late 41 the fighting had gone on 2 years and the brits were running out of everything. Achris sadly I think your right. political expediency sometimes silences truth and justice. I think it got Jane Fonda off the hook as well. so it seems to work well for all. if ya have money

cbnoodles · Apr 24, 2005

Re: Is the Japanese government stupid, or do they think the rest of the world is

Re: Is the Japanese government stupid, or do they think the rest of the world is

Back to the original issue of the thread. China's Red Communist Government will seize any opportunity to attack capitalist society and this is just another example of it. Don't think for a second I believe the Japanese were innocent or that they refuse to acknowledge wrongdoing but this is not a new subject. Ask yourselves instead, what is the Chinese government's purpose here? The general population of China is treated like proverbial mushrooms and have been given what the government wants them to know. The Reds have, and always have had, an agenda. By detracting from westernized society and government, they are able to show the superiority of their own ideology. The worst thought I have about this is a line by, forgive me if my literary reference is incorrect, Shakespeare: "Methinks he doth protest too much." What exactly are the Reds up to or what are they trying to hide? Think about the atrocities by their own government about which we do know and then think about all those of which we know nothing.

rodbolt · Apr 24, 2005

Re: Is the Japanese government stupid, or do they think the rest of the world is

Re: Is the Japanese government stupid, or do they think the rest of the world is

I am quite sure the red Chinese have committed their share of atrocities. but there again a Busch brother was able to do business with communist china whike the embargo was on, a communicatitions sattile company. the more I read the more I sit and wonder. I may have to become a sheep and quit reading. seems there are to many family ties and underhanded family deals.http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=9231 while I try not to equate what realtives do to what an individual does it just seems the list wont stop. and with the new chinese anti-cessesion law what will happen if Tiawan is militarily invaded ?

dogsdad · Apr 24, 2005

Re: Is the Japanese government stupid, or do they think the rest of the world is

Re: Is the Japanese government stupid, or do they think the rest of the world is

Rodbolt's mention of this anti-secession law has got me to thinking... Maybe China is planning to not only take Taiwan, but also attack Japan at the same time. Could be they figure there will be a major war over Taiwan, so why not make it worth it? Eliminating Japan would be a blow to the West! Could be they have designs on the Phillipines and other territory also. Could it be that they think they can keep it all from going nuclear by taking North Korea and eliminating that particular threat to the US (essentially throwing the US a political bone)? If so, would they stop at the Korean DMZ? What about petroleum resources in other SE Asian countries? If I am not mistaken, Indonesia has some for the taking... Could be that there is a master plan. It seems fantastic, but that makes it all the more surprising (remember Pearl Harbor), doesn't it?

Tinkerer · Apr 24, 2005

Re: Is the Japanese government stupid, or do they think the rest of the world is

Re: Is the Japanese government stupid, or do they think the rest of the world is

Originally posted by dogsdad: Rodbolt's mention of this anti-secession law has got me to thinking... Maybe China is planning to not only take Taiwan, but also attack Japan at the same time. Could be they figure there will be a major war over Taiwan, so why not make it worth it? Eliminating Japan would be a blow to the West! Could be they have designs on the Phillipines and other territory also. Could it be that they think they can keep it all from going nuclear by taking North Korea and eliminating that particular threat to the US (essentially throwing the US a political bone)? If so, would they stop at the Korean DMZ? What about petroleum resources in other SE Asian countries? If I am not mistaken, Indonesia has some for the taking... Could be that there is a master plan. It seems fantastic, but that makes it all the more surprising (remember Pearl Harbor), doesn't it?

Maybe it won't unfold the way you've outlined it, but we'd be stupid to think that China isn't going to be a huge force in the coming century. Probably within the next 10 to 25 years. You've raised a very important point that the West ignores at its peril. Asian governments, espcially dictatorships, often think in much longer terms and will absorb huge losses much better than the West. Witness the willingness of the North Vietnamese to endure huge losses for 20 years while the French, US and Australians got wound up about casualities which weren't much more than a large drop in the ocean to what they were sustaining. The 500 or so Australians who died in the 10 years we were involved were probably less than the NVA human mules who died in a single B52 raid on some supply trails. As soon as one trail was bombed the NVA opened another one. China could well be supplying a lot and maybe most of the West's manufactured goods within the next 10 to 25 years. China is also prostituting its own economy to get hard currency. If it continues on its present course, I expect that some time between 2015 and 2050 China will be the dominant world economy. If so, it will expect to and will be capable of exercising the international power that the US currently does, and will be able to back it up with greater military force than the US can. If that happens the average Americans who will pay the greatest price can blame the US corporations who've been exporting their jobs to China to increase profits for their more privileged US shareholders, some of which are pension funds supposed to be providing future benefits for the average Americans who will pay the price. All this assumes that China will continue its bizarre laissez-faire capitalist expansion under a communist dictatorship in which the path to wealth is capitalist activity under the patronage of Party and army officials who until recently had the lock on privilege, power, and wealth. But the Chinese ain't like us. The 1960's Cultural Revolution came out of nowhere. It's quite possible that Party and or army officials will reach a point where they realise that the capitalists they have permitted and sponsored and exploited are getting too powerful and making more money than the Party and army officials. Another crackdown will follow that will take them back 10 or 30 or 50 years. Another Great Leap Backward. We'd better hope so. In the meantime, buy all the cheap fair average quality Chinese power tools you can, 'cos they're a bargain. They mightn't be available in ten or twenty years when China turns more of its huge productive capacity to weapons.

achris · Apr 26, 2005

Re: Is the Japanese government stupid, or do they think the rest of the world is

Re: Is the Japanese government stupid, or do they think the rest of the world is

buy all the cheap fair average quality Chinese power tools you can, 'cos they're a bargain.

As much as I hate it, I agree with the 'bargin' sentiment. Unfortunately it's those cheap prices that will drive the Chinese economy to being the international power. I am trying very hard to avoid buying Chinese; to the point of, where I can, buying locally made products. Hopefully some people will follow my lead and we won't suffer the company and job losses associated with buying overseas goods. My philosophy is 'Buy local and keep your job'. It's all well and good for companies to make more profit by sacking the local labour force and importing, to satisfy shareholders, but their customers are the people they just sacked! If the community has high unemployment then those people have no money to buy the goods, no matter how cheap, so the shareholders will have no return, eventually worthless shares. Personally I would rather have long-term, modest returns than short-term, high returns followed by worthless stock. The way things are going, that's what will happen. Chris............

Tinkerer · Apr 26, 2005

Re: Is the Japanese government stupid, or do they think the rest of the world is

Re: Is the Japanese government stupid, or do they think the rest of the world is

Originally posted by achris: 

buy all the cheap fair average quality Chinese power tools you can, 'cos they're a bargain.

Click to expand...

As much as I hate it, I agree with the 'bargin' sentiment. Unfortunately it's those cheap prices that will drive the Chinese economy to being the international power. I am trying very hard to avoid buying Chinese; to the point of, where I can, buying locally made products. Hopefully some people will follow my lead and we won't suffer the company and job losses associated with buying overseas goods. My philosophy is 'Buy local and keep your job'. It's all well and good for companies to make more profit by sacking the local labour force and importing, to satisfy shareholders, but their customers are the people they just sacked! If the community has high unemployment then those people have no money to buy the goods, no matter how cheap, so the shareholders will have no return, eventually worthless shares. Personally I would rather have long-term, modest returns than short-term, high returns followed by worthless stock. The way things are going, that's what will happen. Chris............

I fully agree. The problem is that when I go down to Bunnings it's hard to find any power tool made in Australia, or anywhere outside Asia for that matter. Pretty much the same for a lot of handtools, although there's a bit of European and American quality there and a few Australian die hards like Suttons. It's real hard to go past a Chinese GMC power tool with the warranty they offer. For handymen, they're more than adequate quality and the price is unbelievable. The Ozitos aren't much worse. Probably come out of the same factory anyway. Some of them are identical patterns and specs. How they can do generators for $98 and compound mitre saws for $60 and a pretty good cast table saw with extension table for $298 etc is beyond me. But I'll buy them and help cut our throats in the process. It's not like there's any Australian alternative most of the time, courtesy of CEO's on squillions and government policy for the past 30 years which forced us to this point because it's supposed to be good for us. What worries me most is what the world is going to be like for my kids in another 10 to 30 years. God help us if there's another war. We couldn't make half of what we need. So much for the post-WWII realisation that we had to beef up our manufacturing for precisely that purpose, which oddly enough also happened to be the time of our greatest prosperity when we actually made our own goods.

DJ · Apr 26, 2005

Re: Is the Japanese government stupid, or do they think the rest of the world is

Re: Is the Japanese government stupid, or do they think the rest of the world is

See above. America HATERS-Rule! But, choose to live here? Hmmmm!

Tinkerer · Apr 26, 2005

Re: Is the Japanese government stupid, or do they think the rest of the world is

Re: Is the Japanese government stupid, or do they think the rest of the world is

Originally posted by DJ: See above. America HATERS-Rule! But, choose to live here? Hmmmm!

What does this mean?

Dunaruna · Apr 26, 2005

Re: Is the Japanese government stupid, or do they think the rest of the world is

Re: Is the Japanese government stupid, or do they think the rest of the world is

Originally posted by Tinkerer: 

Originally posted by DJ: See above. America HATERS-Rule! But, choose to live here? Hmmmm!

Click to expand...

What does this mean?

I was wondering the same thing tink.

DJ · Apr 26, 2005

Re: Is the Japanese government stupid, or do they think the rest of the world is

Re: Is the Japanese government stupid, or do they think the rest of the world is

C'mom-read. The folks here, in this country, hate it worse than you do-down under..

Is the Japanese government stupid, or do they think the rest of the world is?

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