Is this just a bunch of gas?

marty_scher

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Mar 30, 2002
Messages
208
The President Bush pledged $1.5 billion for hydrogen fuel research.<br /><br />GM is spending tons of their $$ on developing hydrogen cars, power generators and even hydrogen fuel cells for cordless power saws.<br /><br />They say building cars will be small potatos for them, once hydrogen fuel technology matures and they start selling it.<br /><br />Is this just Buck Rogers stuff, or is it that future buzzword "plastics" (from the movie "The Graduate")?<br /><br />Sound's pretty cool to just have clean water running out of your tailpipe (on your car that is ;) )<br /><br />Marty
 

snapperbait

Vice Admiral
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Aug 20, 2002
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Re: Is this just a bunch of gas?

I don't think it will happen on a large scale.. A few auto makers have fooled around with it, with some sucess, but the big three (GM, ford, crysler) will realize that hydrogen fuel cell technology is going to be far too expensive for the general consumer...
 

roscoe

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Joined
Oct 30, 2002
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21,750
Re: Is this just a bunch of gas?

"A few have fooled around with it?"<br />The fact is that every auto manufacturer that produces 50,000 unit a year is actively working on or partnering in the research of fuel cells. <br /><br />Yes it is very expensive now. But it will get cheaper fast, once a few hurdles are overcome. And a refueling station is being built now, in Wash D.C.<br /><br />A wind powered hydrogen separator and storage tank can and will be used to create a supply to be used when needed, to heat and light your neighborhood and fuel your car. <br /><br />Give it twenty years and the kids will look at you like you are an idiot or alien if you ask this question.
 

dkondelik

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Sep 10, 2002
Messages
643
Re: Is this just a bunch of gas?

fuel cells have been around for years. The most famous was on Apollo 13. The technology DOES exist but the are some manufacturing hurdles to be overcome.<br /><br />A bigger concern at this time is the fuel for the cell. Be it hydrozine(sp?) as on Apollo, or just plain hydrogen, just try to imagine what a major intersection would look like durring rush hour, immediately following the EXPLOSION resulting from a collision.<br /><br />If "they" can come up with an efficient methode of "Cracking" water into H2 and O, on the vehicle (on demand fuel production), well then,.... then you've got somthing.<br /><br />I'm no clarvoyant but do believe that IF the push doesn't collaps, we will see significant fuel cell vehicles in the next decade or so.
 

cpasseno03

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Dec 14, 2002
Messages
246
Re: Is this just a bunch of gas?

Anyone know halfway in detail how these doo-hickeys work? They react hydrogen and oxygen which makes water, and somehow this is some kinda ionic thing that puts off a significant voltage. How do they harness this voltage? How does it react, having no carbon it would'nt really "burn" as we commonly use the term. Must it be ignited or what? After this voltage it mysteriously harvested from the fuel cell and water is created and expelled, it is stored in batteries, that of which I hear are also use leading edge technology, whats different about those? And where would most of the hydrogen come from? Of course it is among the most abundant of elements, but almost always requires seperation from other counterparts, this seperationg requires energy to put put in to it, right? Seems to me if it creates water and some people talk of water as a hydrogen source, then run the "tailpipe" into the "intake" and your good for ever? That would require as much energy to split the H and O as it does to put them together, you would have no left over energy to go anywhere. So people that talk of water as the fuel and (or) the exhaust, what do you mean??? I would like to learn more about these puppies, Bet they get more popular quite rapidly...<br />Craig
 

12Footer

Fleet Admiral
Joined
Mar 25, 2001
Messages
8,217
Re: Is this just a bunch of gas?

This research towards the goal can be equated to JFK's push to the moon in every way. "We choose to do these things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard".<br /><br />IMHO, it is acheveable in this decade, if the goal to do so is set, and carried.<br />But just as the B-1 bomber, the next guy can nix the whole thing...then the next can pick it uup again,ad nausium.
 

CalicoKid

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
May 27, 2002
Messages
1,599
Re: Is this just a bunch of gas?

You can find great info on fuel cells here: US dept. of energy click on the "how does a fuel cell work?" graphic. It's excellent.<br /><br /> Fuel Cell.org has good info on the many types of fuel cells being used and developed today.<br /><br /> Ballard is one manufacturer of fuel cell engines. See how theirs works.<br /><br />This technology is very important to us. Yes it still takes energy (electricity) to separate pure Hydrogen from water or another source but if all of the electric production and processing is being done at a few 'point sources' it is much easier to control pollution than the way we do it now, burning fuel in every single vehicle on the road.<br /><br />Pure hydrogen is dangerous. It wants to combine with oxygen in a bad way and just a static spark will set off a huge explosion wherever hydrogen and oxygen are able to mix freely. Remember the Hindenburg? Full of hydrogen, the US at the time were the only ones capable of harvesting helium and wouldn't let the Germans in on the secret. So they used a very light gas they COULD make. Some fuel cells obtain hydrogen from more stable fuels that are rich in hydrogen like methane. Much safer to store. And we're harvesting the stuff from landfills!<br /><br />Fuel cells are much more efficient than internal combustion engines for several reasons. An IC engine burns fuel in order to unleash energy end convert it into mechanical torque. Even in the cleanest engines the combustion is incomplete and some of the fuel is going out the tailpipes. A lot of the energy realeased from the fuel is in the forms of sound, light and heat. Engines (and drivetrains) have many moving parts which require a percentage of the fuel's energy to be moved, more losses. Engines need to keep running whether or not the vehicle needs it's output, it is burning fuel (and making pollution) while you are sitting at lights, coasting downhill, warming up the car in winter, etc.<br /><br />A fuel cell is essentially consuming fuel the same as an IC engine but in a much more controlled manner. Instead of only harnessing the "fat" part of the combustion like an IC engine, fuel cells are scavenging every single electron produced by a slowed down reaction of hydrogen with oxygen. A little waste heat is produced by the reaction so some energy is lost there but only a minuscule fracton of that lost in an IC engine. All hydrogen is used in the reaction, nothing goes out the exhaust unused. There are no moving parts in a fuel cell, no mechanical losses, no noise. Fuel cells only need to work when power is needed. Electric motors will provide propulsion for fuel cell vehicles. An electric motor can be direct drive at the wheels which would eliminate hundreds of moving parts, even brakes because the motors can provide braking while generating electricity (regenerative braking). Electric motors provide maximum torque at zero RPM. This means instantaneous accelaration from a standstill without the motor running. Vehicles will have electric heaters which will mean you can defrost them without an engine running.<br /><br />GM has developed a prototype car that uses a fuel cell and a direct drive electric motor at each wheel for true all wheel drive and braking. This car's driveline is electronically controlled to obtain maximum traction and efficiency at all times during acceleration, cruising and braking. It has no clutches, transmissions, transfer cases, viscious couplings, drive-shafts, brake rotors or pads. It is light, simple and nearly maintenance free.<br /><br />Honda has a prototype car that uses (for now) a small IC engine and generator to produce electricity which is directed to a battery and a super-capacitor that can store and release large amounts of electricity rapidly. The electricity drives electric motors for vehicle propulsion. This car gets 65 MPG and produces over ONE THOUSAND wheel horsepower. Read that last sentence again :) The high output at the wheel is due to the capacitor's ability to release a lot of stored energy on demand. Many think the little IC engine and generator will be replaced with some type of fuel cell.<br /><br />With all of the advantages fuel cells and electric motors promise in efficiency and simplicity you'd think they would be everywhere already (there is a test market in L.A. CA). Keep in mind though, our govt. is influenced heavily by lobbyists for longstanding fuel and auto manufacturing industries that involve literally thousands of companies that could be threatened by a loss of demand for their products and services. Fuel cell technology is a minor market today and has virtually no representation in politics. Unfortunate but true. I believe 100% in this technology and support it all the way.
 
D

DJ

Guest
Re: Is this just a bunch of gas?

It's for real. The only thing missing is the infrastructure (read pumps) for the fuel.<br /><br />None of the technolgy is totally new.<br /><br />The drive systems closely resemble diesel locomotives, just much refined.<br /><br />The "hybrids" produced today are basically test beds for the drive systems. Once the infrastucture somewhat catches up, the auto manufactures will just pop in a fuel cell in place of an internal combustion engine. Viola-no emissions.<br /><br />The economy cannot stand this kind of hit, all at once. It will be very gradual, yet it's coming.<br /><br />There is no reason that each home cannot be self powered. Wow, what a concept.
 

snapperbait

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Joined
Aug 20, 2002
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5,754
Re: Is this just a bunch of gas?

From what I've read so far (thanks for the links CalicoKid :) ), this looks like it could have great posibilities for inboard marine engines..
 
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